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Yes. Mythicism Is Still A Joke

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  • #31
    Originally posted by psstein View Post
    Herodotus is not just writing about his travels and reports some really odd things, like the ants that dig for gold.

    Histories 3.102-105
    Speaking of gold he often mentioned how cyclopes living in northern Europe stole gold from the griffons who also resided there.

    And his claim that female lions only give birth to a single cub in their lives because the cub rips apart their womb clawing their way out of it in order to be born was mocked by the ancient Greeks such as Aristotle:

    Source: History of Animals


    "The tale which is told about the uterus being expelled when the lioness gives birth is ridiculous, and was invented because of the scarcity of lions; someone at a loss as to the reason invented the tale"

    © Copyright Original Source



    Aristotle also ridiculed Herodotus (who he called "the story-teller") for claiming that fish reproduced, not by copulating, but by swallowing silt.

    During the Hellenistic period, after the Greeks became much more familiar with places like Egypt and Persia, Herodotus was popular but primarily as a target of satire and ridicule as it seemed to become a requirement of anyone who traveled to disprove this or that claim of his.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by psstein View Post
      So you're a mythicist.
      It was either him or maybe Jacep who was claiming awhile back that even Paul was a fictitious character

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        It was either him or maybe Jacep who was claiming awhile back that even Paul was a fictitious character
        I don't remember the exact thread, but yeah...JimL has pretty much admitted to being a mythicist.
        I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by psstein View Post
          So you're a mythicist.
          Of course, but the whole of it is more of a fable.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by psstein View Post
            Herodotus is not just writing about his travels and reports some really odd things, like the ants that dig for gold.
            I've read his work. He has lots of amusing stories he's picked up from his travels. Including a discussion that's always fascinated me about whether democracy, oligarchy, or monarchy is the best system of government.

            Yes he's got a collection of amusing and at times silly stories from his travels. But he doesn't reach the 7-headed dragons level of crazy like the Bible.
            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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            • #36
              Shhhh.

              No one tell Starlight that apocalypses were supposed to include strange symbolism and imagery.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                No one tell Starlight that apocalypses were supposed to include strange symbolism and imagery.
                I started a thread a while back discussing the craziness that is religious visions.
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • #38
                  Thanks for your opinion!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    It was either him or maybe Jacep who was claiming awhile back that even Paul was a fictitious character
                    You're sure you're not thinking Doug? Pretty sure he holds that view. Heck, might be all three of them, but I always pegged Jaecp wiser than that.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      Of course, but the whole of it is more of a fable.
                      Wow, so you really think the historical phenomenon of Christianity can be explained without recourse to a historical Jesus of Nazareth?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                        Shhhh.

                        No one tell Starlight that apocalypses were supposed to include strange symbolism and imagery.
                        If he thinks Revelation and Daniel are weird, he should read some of the apocryphal apocalypses. The Apocalypse of Baruch is incredibly weird.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by psstein View Post
                          Wow, so you really think the historical phenomenon of Christianity can be explained without recourse to a historical Jesus of Nazareth?
                          I think it's more probable that Jesus existed and led a movement of social reform vaguely along the lines described in the gospels. However, I think it's perfectly possible that he actually never existed and that "Jesus" was the fictional/symbolic spiritual "leader" of the early Christian movement which could be seen as a cult group vaguely akin the the group at Qumran.

                          There is enough talk of visions in the early Christian writings and of seeing Jesus in those visions and of receiving teachings from Jesus in those visions - as I discussed here - to make me think it is perfectly possible that the 'teachings from Jesus' present in the gospels were a collation of visions of Jesus and teachings received therein from among members of the early church. To my mind the most solid argument against this is the extent to which the synoptic gospels give a pretty coherent and complete account of the ministry of a social reformer, whereas what I would expect from a collection of visions is more of a list of the theological teachings of Jesus of the kind we find in the Gospel of Thomas or the hyper-theological monologue sections in the Gospel of John ("I am the way, the truth and the life" etc).

                          The "historical phenomenon of Christianity" as you put it, seems totally explicable without Jesus actually existing. Especially since Paul was one of the ones primarily responsible for spreading it, and he never met Jesus (well, except for in visions, where he tells us he received teachings from Jesus - see the linked thread).
                          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by psstein View Post
                            Wow, so you really think the historical phenomenon of Christianity can be explained without recourse to a historical Jesus of Nazareth?
                            Yes it can, but it needn't be explained without Jesus. "History is fabled by the daughters of memory." James Joyce. And sometimes history is just made up, tall tales, and again history can be, as it is in the NT, used as a backdrop for a fictional tale, a purposeful fable, a myth.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              Yes it can, but it needn't be explained without Jesus. "History is fabled by the daughters of memory." James Joyce. And sometimes history is just made up, tall tales, and again history can be, as it is in the NT, used as a backdrop for a fictional tale, a purposeful fable, a myth.
                              That's a fringe position at best.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                                I think it's more probable that Jesus existed and led a movement of social reform vaguely along the lines described in the gospels. However, I think it's perfectly possible that he actually never existed and that "Jesus" was the fictional/symbolic spiritual "leader" of the early Christian movement which could be seen as a cult group vaguely akin the the group at Qumran.

                                There is enough talk of visions in the early Christian writings and of seeing Jesus in those visions and of receiving teachings from Jesus in those visions - as I discussed here - to make me think it is perfectly possible that the 'teachings from Jesus' present in the gospels were a collation of visions of Jesus and teachings received therein from among members of the early church. To my mind the most solid argument against this is the extent to which the synoptic gospels give a pretty coherent and complete account of the ministry of a social reformer, whereas what I would expect from a collection of visions is more of a list of the theological teachings of Jesus of the kind we find in the Gospel of Thomas or the hyper-theological monologue sections in the Gospel of John ("I am the way, the truth and the life" etc).

                                The "historical phenomenon of Christianity" as you put it, seems totally explicable without Jesus actually existing. Especially since Paul was one of the ones primarily responsible for spreading it, and he never met Jesus (well, except for in visions, where he tells us he received teachings from Jesus - see the linked thread).
                                History isn't about what's possible, it's about what's probable, as you acknowledge. It's very tough to explain where Paul gets all his information. He says he receives the gospel he preaches. Carrier and others have always misread that as "he got everything from a vision."

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