If Moore Wins on Tuesday....

[Sparko]

Then the Religious Right value power and strategy more than principles.

Secularly that's tactically wise, but I don't think they can ever again call out democrats on sexual escapades and hold the same high ground. At least, to be consistent, they should demand the same strength of evidence for them, as for Moore in order to be satisfied. And be just as quick to forgive, if the person says it was in the past and that they've grown as a person. Otherwise both sides would be thoroughly down in the filth together when it comes their political leaders and unclean deeds.

I think there should be the same standard of proof required before someone is asked to step down. In Conyer's case he paid off the woman using public funds. That seems to indicate admission of guilt. Franken was shown guilty by a photo. Moore just has accusations from 40 years ago and a questionable yearbook page that proves nothing.

Having said that, I don't think Moore should be running. His reputation is shot and there are too many questions involved. If he were already in office I would say let him stay, but since he is running for a new office, I think he should have dropped out until such time as he has cleared his name.

[rogue06]

Then the Religious Right value power and strategy more than principles.

Secularly that's tactically wise, but I don't think they can ever again call out democrats on sexual escapades and hold the same high ground. At least, to be consistent, they should demand the same strength of evidence for them, as for Moore in order to be satisfied. And be just as quick to forgive, if the person says it was in the past and that they've grown as a person. Otherwise both sides would be thoroughly down in the filth together when it comes their political leaders and unclean deeds.

So the right ought to start kicking people out based on rumors and innuendos -- many of which get discredited?

Let's be blunt here. The left does not give a whit about women who have been harassed (or they never would have studiously covered up the misdeeds for so long). This is all about angling for another way to go after Trump and they are more than willing to sacrifice a few pawns in order to do so.

I guess one way to look at it is that it has finally dawned on them that their collusion conspiracy theories aren't going anywhere and it was time to come up with a new tactic.

[Jedidiah]

Then the Religious Right value power and strategy more than principles.

Secularly that's tactically wise, but I don't think they can ever again call out democrats on sexual escapades and hold the same high ground. At least, to be consistent, they should demand the same strength of evidence for them, as for Moore in order to be satisfied. And be just as quick to forgive, if the person says it was in the past and that they've grown as a person. Otherwise both sides would be thoroughly down in the filth together when it comes their political leaders and unclean deeds.

In other words it seems to me you are saying,'call out Republicans who are facing accusations, but not Democrats. I hope that is not what you are saying.

[Starlight]

Franken was shown guilty by a photo.

The photo was not proof of any serious wrongdoing. After the photo came out, even the most zealous anti-harasser Dems were mostly fine with him staying. It was the 6 or so subsequent women who accused him of things that were the problem and why he was forced out. The photo was irrelevant.

[Cow Poke]

The photo was not proof of any serious wrongdoing. After the photo came out, even the most zealous anti-harasser Dems were mostly fine with him staying. It was the 6 or so subsequent women who accused him of things that were the problem and why he was forced out. The photo was irrelevant.

So, the photo is what started the whole thing, apparently, but it was irrelevant.

[rogue06]

So, the photo is what started the whole thing, apparently, but it was irrelevant.

It's what gave credence to the accusations but was irrelevant.

[Cow Poke]

It's what gave credence to the accusations but was irrelevant.

Kinda like "other than that, Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?"

[Starlight]

So, the photo is what started the whole thing, apparently, but it was irrelevant.

It pushed Al Franken into the headlines regarding sexual misconduct which inspired other women to come forward with accusations against Al Franken. Those accusations were what got him forced to resign. The photo itself was not evidence of serious wrongdoing and that part of the scandal quickly blew over in about 2 days. The subsequent accusations against Al Franken did not blow over however.

[Cow Poke]

It pushed Al Franken into the headlines regarding sexual misconduct which inspired other women to come forward with accusations against Al Franken.

Welcome to the party!

Those accusations were what got him forced to resign.

Triggered by the photo, yes.

The photo itself was not evidence of serious wrongdoing and that part of the scandal quickly blew over in about 2 days. The subsequent accusations against Al Franken did not blow over however.

Your goofy claim was....

The photo was irrelevant.

It's what really started this whole thing. That's purdy dadburn relevant.

[Starlight]

It's what really started this whole thing.

Well, actually, truth be told, not even that. Simultaneous with the photo was a much more serious claim made by the woman in the photo that Al Franken had forced her into kissing him. That claim was always more serious than the photo.

People's reaction to the photo among those on the liberal left I follow was largely... "er, so these are comedians on a highly sexualized comedy tour for the military and where their acts involve things like grinding on each other and kissing on stage , and here's a photo of one comedian pretending to grope another but not actually touching her and besides which she's fully clothed and wearing a kevlar vest to boot...?" All commentators I follow were always far more interested in her claim that he had forced a kiss on her that she had resisted and been uncomfortable with, than they were with the photo.

[Cow Poke]

Well, actually, truth be told, not even that. Simultaneous with the photo was a much more serious claim made by the woman in the photo that Al Franken had forced her into kissing him. That claim was always more serious than the photo.

Yes, and the photo (a picture is worth a thousand words) propelled her narrative to the fore, and gave it credibility.

People's reaction to the photo among those on the liberal left I follow was largely... "er, so these are comedians on a highly sexualized comedy tour for the military and where their acts involve things like grinding on each other and kissing on stage , and here's a photo of one comedian pretending to grope another but not actually touching her and besides which she's fully clothed and wearing a kevlar vest to boot...?" All commentators I follow were always far more interested in her claim that he had forced a kiss on her that she had resisted and been uncomfortable with, than they were with the photo.

Without the photo, it would have been just another allegation. But, please, feel free to continue to pretend the photo was irrelevant.

[Starlight]

Without the photo, it would have been just another allegation.

Precisely, but you don't seem to understand the seriousness of those allegations, and the lack of importance of the photo. He resigned because of those "just another allegation"s. I get that you conservatives don't seem to take them seriously, but please try to understand that liberals/dems do. Al Franken got forced out because people felt there were enough allegations against him from multiple women with enough combined credibility. For exactly the same reason, the same people view Moore and Trump as guilty too.

[Cow Poke]

Precisely, but you don't seem to understand the seriousness of those allegations, and the lack of importance of the photo. He resigned because of those "just another allegation"s.

And those allegations were taken seriously because of the photo that was pretty shocking.

I get that you conservatives don't seem to take them seriously,

What a steaming pile of bullpucky. I bet you were cheering on Bill Clinton in his "I did not have seckshuel relations" speech, and loudly proclaiming "BIMBO ERUPTIONS" regarding his accusers. You numnut. (fair play)

but please try to understand that liberals/dems do.

And, you, please try to stop being such a sanctimonious drama queen.

Al Franken got forced out because people felt there were enough allegations against him from multiple women with enough combined credibility. For exactly the same reason, the same people view Moore and Trump as guilty too.

Absent the photo, we probably wouldn't know the allegation exists, because it's what triggered the reaction from the person in the photo.

The photo is quite relevant.

[Leonhard]

In other words it seems to me you are saying,'call out Republicans who are facing accusations, but not Democrats. I hope that is not what you are saying.

I can't see how that can possible be the right reading of what I'm saying. Where did I say "Call out Republicans but not Democrats", my point was the exact opposite!

I'm rather saying, that Republicans can't keep holding the moral high ground on sexual matters if they keep accussing anyone coming forward with testimonies to be 'paid shills', but whenever accusations of democrats come out they go "well considering their stance on sexual morality that's hardly surprising", and respond with articles about the evils of the sexual revolution etc. It comes off as hypocrisy to the highest degree.

If you're tough on principles, you'll have to be tough on them consistently. This includes showing integrity. I know several liberals that said that Franken had to go because of this, saying it was a shame because of how good he was in politics (in their cause mind you), but that this was simply how it had to go.

Otherwise it would just be hypocrisy.

Both sides of a polarised political debate will tend to compartmentalise and show bias. However I haven't seen the same attempt at painting the women coming forward as being part of a liberal conspiracy. Even Sparko on this forum, on Facebook, loudly proclaimed that all of them had stopped talking about it, when that was not the case. Very quickly a lot of weird rumors are spread and believed instantly without any critical assessment.

[Thoughtful Monk]

...keep holding the moral high ground...

Neither party can hold high moral ground. Like the country, they both have fallen off the top of the hill and rolling into the gutters.