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Thread: Trump to start process of sending Americans back to moon - White House

  1. #21
    tWebber HMS_Beagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    A lunar base could be useful. Think of the telescope you could put there with 1/6 g and no atmosphere. Not sure if mining would be profitable. (The moon is a harsh mistress) Solar arrays to beam power back to earth? I think we should be exploring,pushing the boundaries. Space is the next great frontier. We should be out there making it work for us. Maybe we can't, but if we don't try it is guaranteed we can't.

    Jim
    I 100% agree we need to keep exploring space and pushing the boundaries. I'm also a realist and just have fears spending too much on the moon with little scientific ROI will leave too little for other useful things. In a perfect world we'd already have a manned base there.

  2. #22
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    If you're going to use orbit as a staging point, wouldn't it be simpler to just use Earth orbit?

    I think it would be more cost-effective for a private venture to get us back into space (which is already starting to happen, at least for LEO). We need to commercialize space in order to make it economically viable anyway, IMO.
    You guys can thank Obama for that. He kickstarted what allowed Boing, SpaceX and Jeff Bezos to compete in rocket launches for commercial resupply missions to the ISS. Though of course, Republicans hated it, because it was Obama that proposed it and not them.

    At any rate I think its time for the design, development and construction of rockets to be done in competition between various companies. Boing is so far keeping its cards close to their body, SpaceX has charged ahead with a mixture of failures and a lot of awesome successes. The prospect of developing reusable rockets is a game changer.

    And just look how cool it looks when they land.

    Landing is at 7:45

    Last edited by Leonhard; 12-12-2017 at 02:33 AM.

  3. #23
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    You guys can thank Obama for that. He kickstarted what allowed Boing, SpaceX and Jeff Bezos to compete in rocket launches for commercial resupply missions to the ISS. Though of course, Republicans hated it, because it was Obama that proposed it and not them.
    My issue with the Obama administration's space efforts is that they scrapped the space shuttle with no replacement farther than the drawing board. Resupply missions are nice and all, but we need to get people up there too.
    At any rate I think its time for the design, development and construction of rockets to be done in competition between various companies. Boing is so far keeping its cards close to their body, SpaceX has charged ahead with a mixture of failures and a lot of awesome successes. The prospect of developing reusable rockets is a game changer.
    2 corrections: 1, it's Boeing; 2, the idiom you're reaching for is "close to the vest".

    It's also not strictly true that there wasn't competition between various companies to design, develop, and construct rockets. The government used competition between contractors to select the launch vehicles they would use.
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  4. #24
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Can you imagine, Jim, a scenario in which a moon base would be possible without humans to run it?
    ??? I am not sure your point CP. I suppose you could have an automated base there. But we won't colonize the solar system without sending people to live in the various places within it were we could 'plant a flag' as it were.

    Jim
    Jorge's trueorigins paper: "...it is known that other volcanic features match what is usually associated with impact craters including ... shatter cones and crystal deformations"

    Planetary Science Institute: "Shatter cones are found in only two places on Earth, 1) in nuclear test sites and 2) meteorite impact structures. They are formed as a result of the high pressure, high velocity shock wave ...

    maximum pressures from 45 to 200 times greater than found in volcanic events (2->20 Gpa)

  5. #25
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    My issue with the Obama administration's space efforts is that they scrapped the space shuttle with no replacement farther than the drawing board. Resupply missions are nice and all, but we need to get people up there too.
    It was either or. NASA isn't getting more money and the Space Shuttle was an incredible expensive machine. It was the opposite of its intended purpose. It ate up money like crazy and cost at least four times as much to launch, as was needed.

    Scrapping it was the only right thing to do and if you ask me, we ought to scrap the International Space Station. Spend the money on a Lunar Colony instead. Or Mars mission. Or a Venus flyby with astronauts. As expensive as it is, its vastly underfunded and understaffed. More time is spent on maintenance than anything else. Its purpose has long been served. We now have a good handle on the effects of space on the human body. Conclusion: Its really unhealthy and bad for us.

    I know its not exactly a point of pride to ride with the Russians, but you're getting a better deal on the seat prices anyway. And the money leftover can be used by SpaceX and others to develop reusable rockets.

    Throw more money at NASA or kill the Space Shuttle. Realistically if the Space Program was to advance and be anything more than pork, then there was simple no other choice.

    2 corrections: 1, it's Boeing; 2, the idiom you're reaching for is "close to the vest".
    Gotcha.

    It's also not strictly true that there wasn't competition between various companies to design, develop, and construct rockets. The government used competition between contractors to select the launch vehicles they would use.
    Not exactly, that was true once, but then they merged and became United Launch Alliance who stopped developing their rocket technology, using the same engines, and same tech as in the sixties, except for the electronics. No attempt at making reusable rockets. They made single-bid contracts for periods of over a decade. And it wasn't until SpaceX sued them that this was stopped. When SpaceX launched their first Falcon9, ULA quickly tried to renegotiate the contract with the Air Force to be the sole provider.

    And it wasn't until SpaceX's Falcon9 managed a landed first stage that ULA started mumbling something about developing reusable engines as well.

    I loved the hearing when a senator asked why it cost four times as much to launch a rocket from ULA, than from SpaceX (even with price hikes following explosions, its still three times more expensive than from SpaceX), and the ULA spokeperson admitted he didn't know that, but they were looking into making it more cost effective.

    I don't see how any of that could have happened without COTS.

    At least not without a big infusion of money. But hey that'd be "big government, tax = theft" etc, right?
    Last edited by Leonhard; 12-12-2017 at 03:35 AM.

  6. #26
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    ??? I am not sure your point CP. I suppose you could have an automated base there. But we won't colonize the solar system without sending people to live in the various places within it were we could 'plant a flag' as it were.

    Jim
    I think he's reacting to post #12, where HMS_Beagle expressed a preference for automation.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  7. #27
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
    I 100% agree we need to keep exploring space and pushing the boundaries. I'm also a realist and just have fears spending too much on the moon with little scientific ROI will leave too little for other useful things. In a perfect world we'd already have a manned base there.
    I agree with your latter point. And finding ways to commercialize space is going to be a far better way to make it happen. The problem right now is the cost. But hey, the first expeditions to the new world were government funded. We just need to make the transition to commercial. Mining asteroids might help that happen. Power generation is another. Special materials perhaps as well (vacuums and weightless environments come easy in space). Lots of sunlight. Just need people with a vision like Musk and lots and lots of money :)


    Jim
    Jorge's trueorigins paper: "...it is known that other volcanic features match what is usually associated with impact craters including ... shatter cones and crystal deformations"

    Planetary Science Institute: "Shatter cones are found in only two places on Earth, 1) in nuclear test sites and 2) meteorite impact structures. They are formed as a result of the high pressure, high velocity shock wave ...

    maximum pressures from 45 to 200 times greater than found in volcanic events (2->20 Gpa)

  8. #28
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    ??? I am not sure your point CP. I suppose you could have an automated base there. But we won't colonize the solar system without sending people to live in the various places within it were we could 'plant a flag' as it were.

    Jim
    Yeah, like OBP said....

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
    Using lunar orbit as a staging point for Mars flights - yes. Landing men on the surface - no. Unmanned vehicles can do that job much better and cheaper than putting humans back there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    You think we can launch "equipment" to the moon without people, and that equipment can set up and launch missions to Mars?
    I was asking for your opinion on this. I think you adequately answered.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  9. #29
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    You guys can thank Obama for that. He kickstarted what allowed Boing, SpaceX and Jeff Bezos to compete in rocket launches for commercial resupply missions to the ISS. Though of course, Republicans hated it, because it was Obama that proposed it and not them.

    At any rate I think its time for the design, development and construction of rockets to be done in competition between various companies. Boing is so far keeping its cards close to their body, SpaceX has charged ahead with a mixture of failures and a lot of awesome successes. The prospect of developing reusable rockets is a game changer.

    And just look how cool it looks when they land.

    Landing is at 7:45

    yep - spaceX is awesome. A lot of the visions Musk has made a reality are awesome.


    Jim
    Jorge's trueorigins paper: "...it is known that other volcanic features match what is usually associated with impact craters including ... shatter cones and crystal deformations"

    Planetary Science Institute: "Shatter cones are found in only two places on Earth, 1) in nuclear test sites and 2) meteorite impact structures. They are formed as a result of the high pressure, high velocity shock wave ...

    maximum pressures from 45 to 200 times greater than found in volcanic events (2->20 Gpa)

  10. #30
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I think he's reacting to post #12, where HMS_Beagle expressed a preference for automation.
    perhaps so. Automation is good, and a lot cheaper. But we gotta go there too. We just need a way to pay for it or make it lots cheaper.


    Jim
    Jorge's trueorigins paper: "...it is known that other volcanic features match what is usually associated with impact craters including ... shatter cones and crystal deformations"

    Planetary Science Institute: "Shatter cones are found in only two places on Earth, 1) in nuclear test sites and 2) meteorite impact structures. They are formed as a result of the high pressure, high velocity shock wave ...

    maximum pressures from 45 to 200 times greater than found in volcanic events (2->20 Gpa)

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