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Daniel Shavers killer walks free.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Please, PLEASE do not take this incident as any sort of norm.
    He can't be the only person like that among the cops. Everyone has their rotten apples, but I've never seen or heard of anything like this in Denmark period. First of all that they're pointing semi-automatic rifles at him... why? Where's the taser? Would a taser really have been out of place?

    It's not - otherwise, it wouldn't be news.
    I doubt he's the only one. And mind you, his body cam was on, and thankfully wasn't "accidentally" turned off or dropped before approaching the suspect.

    Be respectful, follow orders as best you can, and make no sudden moves, and odds are excellent you'll be fine.
    How about catatonic? It seems if you try to follow their instructions you get shot. I'd just lie still on the floor, legs out, arms out and ignore anything they're saying. Playing dead appears to be the only possible strategy. Or would that suffice to get me shot as well, and for people to defend the cop who shot me?

    No, this officer was not above reproach
    I got the meaning of that the other way around. I apologise.

    and I have no idea how you can think from your far remove that he only got fired because of politics.
    So you're saying that he would naturally have been fired, even if no body cams had been on him, and no media coverage of it had happened that threw shame on the police force he came from? I highly doubt that. He was a cop for quite a while before this shooting. I don't see how you can be this incompetent and trigger happy as an officer of the law, without it getting spotted by your coworkers.

    Not exactly, but I don't know the situation, so I'm not going to speculate.
    You guys (conservatives here) are always happy to speculate like crazy when it comes to terrorists, but never when it comes to cops.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      They lost my vote when they shouted for him to crawl toward them. I see no point in that whatsoever. He should have been on the ground, face down, arms and legs out. Period.
      I agree with everything you say. I just don't understand how he can walk from this a free and happy man who said he'd do it all over again if given a chance. That doesn't seem just. Something is broken.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
        I agree with everything you say. I just don't understand how he can walk from this a free and happy man who said he'd do it all over again if given a chance. That doesn't seem just. Something is broken.
        I watched the video, but I really don't know much about the aftermath.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
          I just find it a bit problematic that you're making arguments on a subject that, by your own admission, you've refused to look at some important evidence regarding. The video's only 5 minutes as well, it's not like it'd take that much time to watch.
          The suspect reached for his waistband. That's a fact, and it's enough to introduce reasonable doubt.

          I'm not defending the officer's conduct, I just don't think he's guilty of murder. Not having watched the video, I don't have any emotional connection to this case, so I'm able to look at things objectively.

          How am I wrong? Facts, please, not appeals to emotion.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            I watched the video, but I really don't know much about the aftermath.
            He got cleared of all charges. No penalties of any kind. Granted it seems the police force tactically decided to fire him now that the media is aggressively shaming them, but how on Earth was he on the force without getting the boot earlier?

            Comment


            • #36
              I also don't accept the poor excuse that "we're all sinners", well that's true of all places from Alaska, to Europe, to Japan, from North to South, yet conditions aren't the same all over the world. In other places, this stuff doesn't happen. And in the US, its somehow legally perfectly fine. He doesn't even get a slap on the wrist, he's just out of a job and ready to look for another.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                He can't be the only person like that among the cops.
                Odds are good he's not. On the other hand, I think you're blowing the presence of bad apples way out of proportion.
                Everyone has their rotten apples, but I've never seen or heard of anything like this in Denmark period. First of all that they're pointing semi-automatic rifles at him... why? Where's the taser? Would a taser really have been out of place?
                If you suspect the guy has a gun - and they did, since that was why they were there in the first place, a taser (being a contact weapon) would be worthless. I know you're really spooked by this, Leonhard, but please take a deep breath and try to approach this rationally.
                How about catatonic? It seems if you try to follow their instructions you get shot. I'd just lie still on the floor, legs out, arms out and ignore anything they're saying. Playing dead appears to be the only possible strategy. Or would that suffice to get me shot as well, and for people to defend the cop who shot me?
                If you were catatonic and not moving, there would be no defense for shooting you. None.
                I got the meaning of that the other way around. I apologise.
                No problem. Ordinarily, your English is quite good.
                So you're saying that he would naturally have been fired, even if no body cams had been on him, and no media coverage of it had happened that threw shame on the police force he came from? I highly doubt that. He was a cop for quite a while before this shooting. I don't see how you can be this incompetent and trigger happy as an officer of the law, without it getting spotted by your coworkers.
                Length of service does not protect you from losing your job if you bungle things badly, as he did here. I don't know his history; characterizing him as "trigger happy" before this may not have been accurate. Had he ever shot somebody before?
                You guys (conservatives here) are always happy to speculate like crazy when it comes to terrorists, but never when it comes to cops.
                I'm answering for me, since you asked, not for conservatives here in general. I don't like to speculate.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                  He got cleared of all charges. No penalties of any kind. Granted it seems the police force tactically decided to fire him now that the media is aggressively shaming them, but how on Earth was he on the force without getting the boot earlier?
                  Did he have a history of prior incidences?
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    I also don't accept the poor excuse that "we're all sinners", well that's true of all places from Alaska, to Europe, to Japan, from North to South, yet conditions aren't the same all over the world. In other places, this stuff doesn't happen. And in the US, its somehow legally perfectly fine. He doesn't even get a slap on the wrist, he's just out of a job and ready to look for another.
                    Um, in many places, this stuff is fairly commonplace. Corruption is endemic most places in the southern hemisphere. Yeah, he's out of a job, and will have to find another. He's been on the news, and not in a good light; it won't be so easy for him to get another job.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      ... Or would that suffice to get me shot as well, and for people to defend the cop who shot me?
                      I don't think anybody is defending the shooting. I'm just pointing out that based on the facts, the officer is not guilty of murder, and the prosecution may have overreached with a murder charge.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        The suspect reached for his waistband. That's a fact, and it's enough to introduce reasonable doubt.
                        That never would have happened if the officer had been properly in control.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          Odds are good he's not. On the other hand, I think you're blowing the presence of bad apples way out of proportion.
                          I've been stopped by the police before, mostly traffic related, and I've never had anyone point a gun at me like Phillip Castille had. A friend of mine was pulled over once by the cops in the US and calmly informed them, while he put his hands on the back of his head, stating slowly and clearly that he was cooporating and doing what they're telling him, that he's carrying a knife in his back pockets (saying this only when on knees and with his hands behind his head) etc... I'd never be able to do that in a high stress situation like that, with four guys pointing guns that can end my life in minute or two of painful agonising bleeding as I choke on my own blood (you could still hear Phillip Castille croaking 'I wasn't reaching for the gun' while he was dying).

                          If you suspect the guy has a gun - and they did, since that was why they were there in the first place, a taser (being a contact weapon) would be worthless.
                          Not if it was a taser that shoots needles and wires. I've seen those on Jackass and other places. If they can carry semi-automatics, why can't they carry a taser for just this situation.

                          I know you're really spooked by this, Leonhard, but please take a deep breath and try to approach this rationally.
                          I am spooked. And outraged. Someone doing basically as poorly as I would have done in that situation, got shot by a cop, and the cop walked scuff free, proudly proclaiming he'd do the same thing all over again in the situation. And on all forums I just see people defending that he should go free.

                          And it just seems wrong.

                          If you were catatonic and not moving, there would be no defense for shooting you. None.
                          Then it appears that should be what people should do in all situations with the police. Lie down. Arms outstretched. Be completely passive. Don't move. Don't obey orders. Play dead.

                          No problem. Ordinarily, your English is quite good.
                          I miss idioms on occassion still.

                          Length of service does not protect you from losing your job if you bungle things badly, as he did here.
                          Accidents happen. But there is such a thing as being criminally incompetent at something. Everything about what he was doing was wrong from the start. He escalated the situation, he yelled out confusing instructions (crawl while your hands are in the air), the person had no gun at all and was completely innocent of any wrongdoing and was trying to cooperate as best as he was able. The whole thing was captured on film.

                          And yet apparently its still perfectly legal.

                          That just doesn't make sense. If ChemiNova, a company west of where I live, "accidentally" dumped half a ton of liquid mercury into a lake, they'd have to pay a hefty fine. Yet this guy is fired by the force for, apparently doing something wrong in that situation, or at least for political reasons, and yet has to do zero work to support the two girls that man had. And the wife of the man it happened to, as far as I know, has been paid no recompense for the mistake.

                          Even if its an accident, there's still something injust in this. I can't believe I'm the only one who sees that.

                          I don't know his history; characterizing him as "trigger happy" before this may not have been accurate. Had he ever shot somebody before?
                          He wrote "You're <explitive that begins with f and mods here might ban>" on his rifle. That seems like someone who really has the wrong kind of machismo for the job. And if its the right one, I'm not sure its a job we need.

                          I'm answering for me, since you asked, not for conservatives here in general. I don't like to speculate.
                          Granted. I've just seen it in other places. Wild speculation perfectly acceptable in other situations (can't remember you though, sorry for the grumbling), but when it comes to cops all they do is fair, and it was all only ever a perfectly understandable accident.

                          Even Walter Scott's shooting was hard to convict and that police officer, as was shown later, had a bad habit of just stopping people only later to taser them. Police force did nothing to stop him, fire him etc... until he was caught on camera.

                          So if they'll cover for a guy like that. How on earth can you trust the police?
                          Last edited by Leonhard; 12-11-2017, 09:16 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man
                            You're being very emotional, and I wonder if you need to step away from the thread for a while and cool off?
                            And you're being wicked.

                            1 Samuel 11:5-6
                            And, behold, Saul came after the herd out of the field; and Saul said, What aileth the people that they weep? And they told him the tidings of the men of Jabesh. And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly.


                            Not having watched the video, I don't have any emotional connection to this case, so I'm able to look at things objectively.
                            Not having watched the video, you're the blind trying to lead the blind.

                            Claiming that the officer "[dreamed] up that he might be under attack" doesn't match the facts.
                            You have no idea what the facts are because, like a fool, you're giving opinions without doing investigation. You darken counsel by words without knowledge.

                            As for the Numbers quotation, I'm not sure what you're getting at, because it says exactly the same thing as the Exodus passage that I quoted in that it distinguishes between malicious premeditated killing, and accidental or what we might call "heat of passion" killings.
                            The Bible doesn't say anything about requiring premeditation. It just requires "enmity," meaning anger. Or, in the case of a dangerous ox that kills someone, or in the case of two men who are fighting and cause harm to a pregnant woman's baby, it doesn't even require that much. Recklessness is enough.

                            The suspect reached for his waistband. That's a fact, and it's enough to introduce reasonable doubt.
                            The standard for killing someone isn't "reasonable doubt." The standard for killing someone is, "Was it reasonable for the defendant to believe that he was in serious danger?"

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              That never would have happened if the officer had been properly in control.
                              Perhaps, but we can only go with what happened, not what might have happened under different circumstances. From what I've read, the officers had ample time to restrain and search the suspect, and it's a mystery to me why they didn't. I assume this was all explored through the proper legal channels.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                                And you're being wicked.

                                1 Samuel 11:5-6
                                And, behold, Saul came after the herd out of the field; and Saul said, What aileth the people that they weep? And they told him the tidings of the men of Jabesh. And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly.




                                Not having watched the video, you're the blind trying to lead the blind.



                                You have no idea what the facts are because, like a fool, you're giving opinions without doing investigation. You darken counsel by words without knowledge.



                                The Bible doesn't say anything about requiring premeditation. It just requires "enmity," meaning anger. Or, in the case of a dangerous ox that kills someone, or in the case of two men who are fighting and cause harm to a pregnant woman's baby, it doesn't even require that much. Recklessness is enough.



                                The standard for killing someone isn't "reasonable doubt." The standard for killing someone is, "Was it reasonable for the defendant to believe that he was in serious danger?"
                                I'm done responding to you until you've had a chance to cool off. You're not in a state of mind to discuss this rationally.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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