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  • #76
    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    There's plenty about what to do with one's own money, namely give it to the poor.

    Mark 10:17-31

    21 Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. “There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

    22 At this the man’s face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

    23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God!” 24 This amazed them. But Jesus said again, “Dear children, it is very hard[b] to enter the Kingdom of God. 25 In fact, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!”.

    Tell that to the Donald.


    The pope is the Vicar of Christ is he not?

    Regardless, they're wise words from a senior Christian figure. Unbridled capitalism in the face of of great poverty is an offence against humanity.
    And likewise Jesus was pretty clear that final judgement would be according to how people had treated the poor and oppressed:

    Matthew 25:34-46

    Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

    Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

    The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

    Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

    They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

    Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


    As if that wasn't clear enough, he had plenty of other similar teachings, ranging from the ones you cite ("If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." and "How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God!...it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!"), to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus where the rich man has gone to hell and the poor man has gone to heaven, to "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God" and "But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation" etc.

    As one statistical summary I just found puts it:

    Jesus talked much about money. Sixteen of the thirty-eight parables were concerned with how to handle money and possessions. In the Gospels, an amazing one out of ten verses (288 in all) deal directly with the subject of money. The Bible offers 500 verses on prayer, less than 500 verses on faith, but more than 2,000 verses on money and possessions.

    As I mentioned earlier, my own analysis found that concern for the poor was the plurality topic of Jesus' ministry.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by JimL View Post
      You people remind me of the rich guy in the bible to whom Jesus said, and I'm paraphrasing of course, "you want to follow me, go, give all your belongings to the poor and then come follow me." And the rich guy said "ah, I don't think so Lord, I didn't realize I'd have to sacrifice my stuff to follow you." If you are truly a christian, then you would support the type of government in which taxes are collected in order to care for the poor.
      To me, most of you anti-socialist here are pseudo christians, the plight of other less fortunate people really doesn't matter to you, so long as you can pretend to care, or so long as you can get something out of it for yourself, like the good feeling you get when directly and personally helping someone. If you were truly a christian you'd support the kind of government that would exist if Jesus himself were the head of it, not someone like Trump who, along with the republican congress, is still working at throwing 13 million people off of healthcare with his tax cuts for the wealthy policy.
      And you Jimmy reminds me of the guy that thinks he knows what the Bible says, but actually has no idea what’s he’s talking about. Your understanding of the story of the rich young ruler being one example. See, his stuff was holding him back so Jesus told him to cut off the thing that was holding him back. It wasn’t an absolute command for him to be a communist Jimmy and I have already listed out the charities I support through time, money, or both. Beyond preaching at us non basement dwellers that we need to give away everything to support you, what do you do to make your community a better place? I don’t support government welfare for lots of reasons Jimmy among those is the government is inefficient, it creates barriers between neighbors and families, and encourages accountability because you know those who help you and are less likely to screw those you personally know. Sorry Jimmy, but despite your belief, not everyone believes the government is the best giver of charity that exist.
      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by kiwimac View Post
        Abortion is not murder. Murder is a legal term for unlawful killing, as abortion is legal it can not be murder.
        This would mean that the Nazi's killing millions of Jews wasn't murder, because they made it legal.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          The pope is the Vicar of Christ is he not?
          He is not.

          Regardless, they're wise words from a senior Christian figure. Unbridled capitalism in the face of of great poverty is an offence against humanity.
          He is welcome to his opinion.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            Yeah! Well that’s convincing.

            No he’s not. He’s dead and long decomposed.
            You're certainly welcome to be wrong, at your own peril.

            Yeah, I know, you'll do that maniacal laugh thing.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              He is not.



              He is welcome to his opinion.
              It’s just a way for them to feel good without all the hard work. If the government does it all for you, why bother to work at a soup kitchen, a homeless shelter, a food bank, or do anything with those dirty poor people when the government does it for you and you never have to see them? The US government had flushed trillions of dollars into anti poverty programs and the poverty rate is still the same it was in the 60s. It’s almost as if there’s other ways to help the poor beyond expecting the government to do it for you, but it requires having to interact with them, so that will never happen.
              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                And likewise Jesus was pretty clear that final judgement would be according to how people had treated the poor and oppressed:

                Matthew 25:34-46

                Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

                Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

                The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

                Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

                They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

                He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

                Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


                As if that wasn't clear enough, he had plenty of other similar teachings, ranging from the ones you cite ("If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." and "How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God!...it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!"), to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus where the rich man has gone to hell and the poor man has gone to heaven, to "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God" and "But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation" etc.

                As one statistical summary I just found puts it:

                Jesus talked much about money. Sixteen of the thirty-eight parables were concerned with how to handle money and possessions. In the Gospels, an amazing one out of ten verses (288 in all) deal directly with the subject of money. The Bible offers 500 verses on prayer, less than 500 verses on faith, but more than 2,000 verses on money and possessions.

                As I mentioned earlier, my own analysis found that concern for the poor was the plurality topic of Jesus' ministry.
                So concern for the poor = the government has to take all your stuff to ‘help the poor’???
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                  It’s just a way for them to feel good without all the hard work. If the government does it all for you, why bother to work at a soup kitchen, a homeless shelter, a food bank, or do anything with those dirty poor people when the government does it for you and you never have to see them? The US government had flushed trillions of dollars into anti poverty programs and the poverty rate is still the same it was in the 60s. It’s almost as if there’s other ways to help the poor beyond expecting the government to do it for you, but it requires having to interact with them, so that will never happen.
                  Yeah, when you do it because you actually care, it's a whole lot better experience for those you help.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Yeah, when you do it because you actually care, it's a whole lot better experience for those you help.
                    And tends to line a lot less pockets of government contractors.
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      And likewise Jesus was pretty clear that final judgement would be according to how people had treated the poor and oppressed:
                      Jesus also made it quite clear that there's no way to the Father - and Heaven - except through Him.

                      While you're pretending to care what Jesus taught, you might want to start with the biggie.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        You people remind me of the rich guy in the bible to whom Jesus said, and I'm paraphrasing of course, "you want to follow me, go, give all your belongings to the poor and then come follow me." And the rich guy said "ah, I don't think so Lord, I didn't realize I'd have to sacrifice my stuff to follow you."
                        This is not a paraphrase, it's an ignorant perversion. The 'rich guy' didn't answer. No surprise you're so ignorant of God's Word.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                          So concern for the poor = the government has to take all your stuff to ‘help the poor’???
                          Yes, because they are SO much more efficient at solving the poverty problem.

                          In his January 1964 State of the Union address, President Lyndon Johnson proclaimed, “This administration today, here and now, declares unconditional war on poverty in America.” In the 50 years since that time, U.S. taxpayers have spent over $22 trillion on anti-poverty programs. Adjusted for inflation, this spending (which does not include Social Security or Medicare) is three times the cost of all U.S. military wars since the American Revolution. Yet progress against poverty, as measured by the U.S. Census Bureau, has been minimal, and in terms of President Johnson’s main goal of reducing the “causes” rather than the mere “consequences” of poverty, the War on Poverty has failed completely. In fact, a significant portion of the population is now less capable of self-sufficiency than it was when the War on Poverty began.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Yes, because they are SO much more efficient at solving the poverty problem.

                            In his January 1964 State of the Union address, President Lyndon Johnson proclaimed, “This administration today, here and now, declares unconditional war on poverty in America.” In the 50 years since that time, U.S. taxpayers have spent over $22 trillion on anti-poverty programs. Adjusted for inflation, this spending (which does not include Social Security or Medicare) is three times the cost of all U.S. military wars since the American Revolution. Yet progress against poverty, as measured by the U.S. Census Bureau, has been minimal, and in terms of President Johnson’s main goal of reducing the “causes” rather than the mere “consequences” of poverty, the War on Poverty has failed completely. In fact, a significant portion of the population is now less capable of self-sufficiency than it was when the War on Poverty began.
                            It has done wonders creating cushy government jobs, lining the pockets of government contractors, and creating millions of government dependents that will vote for whoever will keep their benefits or give them more. I guess by those metrics, it was/is a great success.
                            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              There's plenty about what to do with one's own money, namely give it to the poor.

                              Mark 10:17-31

                              21 Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. “There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

                              22 At this the man’s face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

                              23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God!” 24 This amazed them. But Jesus said again, “Dear children, it is very hard[b] to enter the Kingdom of God. 25 In fact, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!”.
                              You're right there's plenty of statements to give money to the poor. I agree. Again, where does Jesus tell anyone to give other people's money to the poor?

                              The pope is the Vicar of Christ is he not?
                              A "vicar" is a representative or deputy of someone. It doesn't mean they are that person, so it's a bit silly to attribute everything they say to that person. Additionally, that title (which applies to all bishops, not just the Pope) isn't accepted by non-Catholics, so I'm not sure why you think using that would be particularly persuasive to non-Catholics.

                              Regardless, they're wise words from a senior Christian figure. Unbridled capitalism in the face of of great poverty is an offence against humanity.
                              As I said before in the message you quote from but apparently didn't read:
                              Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                              Oh, sure, it criticizes completely unregulated capitalism, but it's a hard press to label that socialist, unless anything short of absolutely zero government regulation in the economy is socialism.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                                It has done wonders creating cushy government jobs, lining the pockets of government contractors, and creating millions of government dependents that will vote for whoever will keep their benefits or give them more. I guess by those metrics, it was/is a great success.
                                Yeah, even that SOUP NAZI of a PRISON GUARD who wreaks havoc on the lobby of our local Social Security Office --- we pay that little Hitler's salary!
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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