Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

I no longer consider myself pro-life

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
    He was neither socialist nor anti-war
    Wow you're ignoring a lot of his teachings to make that claim.

    In fact one of His parables is pretty explicitly capitalist and He threatens to return at the end of the world and slaughter people like you.
    I think you're interpreting that one wrong.

    a part of you knows what is to come and trembles.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      I would have thought the overall passage and description of the ceremony in general was pretty clear what was going on and that a different translation of a particular verse isn't going to much change the sense of the passage.

      Can you explain your alternative reading? - what is the purpose of the described ceremony: what is the text saying with regard to why an Israelite should perform the ceremony, what does it accomplish, and what are the possible outcomes?
      If a woman is considered possibly guilty of adultery, they make them drink the water of bitterness (identified to be holy water mixed with dust). If they are guilty, then a divine curse will be unleashed upon them to make them disfigured in the form of a swollen abdomen and a rotted thigh. If they're not guilty, then nothing happens.

      There is obviously a belief that there is some mystical force at work here. After all, water mixed with dust would not induce an abortion, so there's a belief in some form of divine intervention (and even an abortifacient would, to my knowledge, hardly cause a swelled abdomen). Furthermore, if the goal was simply to have someone take an abortifacient and see what happens, there'd be no need for the convoluted procedure with the priest and the oath and all the rest of it, which are there to invoke God (hence the references to the woman standing before the Lord) in order to bring down the curse if the woman is guilty.

      Finally, if the item being given is an abortifacient, then the test makes no sense, as all it would do is demonstrate if they were pregnant or not. That is totally irrelevant to whether or not they committed adultery, as someone can be pregnant without committing adultery and someone can commit adultery without being pregnant. Someone might try to argue that in Old Testament days they didn't know the things we do now and thus had some incorrect ideas, but I'm pretty sure they were aware of how people get pregnant.
      Last edited by Terraceth; 12-13-2017, 12:46 AM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
        If a woman is considered possibly guilty of adultery, they make them drink the water of bitterness (identified to be holy water mixed with dust). If they are guilty, then a divine curse will be unleashed upon them to make them disfigured in the form of a swollen abdomen and a rotted thigh. If they're not guilty, then nothing happens.

        There is obviously a belief that there is some mystical force at work here. After all, water mixed with dust would not induce an abortion, so there's a belief in some form of divine intervention (and even an abortifacient would, to my knowledge, hardly cause a swelled abdomen). Furthermore, if the goal was simply to have someone take an abortifacient and see what happens, there'd be no need for the convoluted procedure with the priest and the oath and all the rest of it, which are there to invoke God (hence the references to the woman standing before the Lord) in order to bring down the curse if the woman is guilty.

        Finally, if the item being given is an abortifacient, then the test makes no sense, as all it would do is demonstrate if they were pregnant or not. That is totally irrelevant to whether or not they committed adultery, as someone can be pregnant without committing adultery and someone can commit adultery without being pregnant. Someone might try to argue that in Old Testament days they didn't know the things we do now and thus had some incorrect ideas, but I'm pretty sure they were aware of how people get pregnant.
        Medieval historians have different theories as to how such 'trials' were generally supposed to actually work...

        One idea is that the trial itself never produced a guilty finding (e.g. your observation that the ingredients specifically named wouldn't scientifically produce an abortion) and instead the idea is psychological: You get the people to believe in God's judgement and the veracity of such a trial, and as a result no women who has actually committed adultery will ever want to put herself through it because she knows that God knows she's guilty and so would panic and admit the truth rather than taking the oath and undergoing the divine trial, whereas a woman who knows she is innocent would happily take the public oath and subject herself to divine judgment which will subsequently find her innocent because it is rigged to do so and thus her husband will take her home happily.

        A second idea historians suggest is that the priest himself actually acts as the judge in practice and he talks to witnesses and talks to the woman and then decides precisely how he is going to concoct this 'water of bitterness' (or whatever constitutes the trial - in medieval trials for example one such trial involved dipping her hand in scalding water that the priest had heated and observing whether the subsequent burn was serious or not).

        And, of course, the third theory is that everyone, priests included, believed in the miraculous nature of such trials and really thought it was God's way of separating the guilty from the innocent. (According to such a theory, whatever the 'water of bitterness' was, it must have done something nasty to at least some of the women some of the time, in order for even the priests to believe it was miraculously judging guilt from innocence)
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
          Jesus was middle eastern (IE: slightly darker than the typical european, almost certainly not brown)
          That’s incorrect. Most scholars believe that Jesus was similar in appearance to the modern inhabitants of the Middle East, i.e. swarthy or brown.

          and He was neither socialist nor anti-war. In fact one of His parables is pretty explicitly capitalist and
          He wasn’t capitalist. In 2013 pope Francis “released a remarkable 84-page document in which he attacked unfettered capitalism as “a new tyranny,” criticized the “idolatry of money,” and urged politicians to guarantee all citizens “dignified work, education and healthcare.” Sounds more like socialism to me,

          https://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter..._13854296.html

          He threatens to return at the end of the world and slaughter people like you.
          Well he sounds like a ball of fun doesn’t he and you actually admire someone who has the intention to slaughter people like me? What’d I do?

          It's actually cute how hard you try to associate with Him while spitting on everything he stood for, like a part of you knows what is to come and trembles.
          Nah! Not even a little bit.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            That’s incorrect. Most scholars believe that Jesus was similar in appearance to the modern inhabitants of the Middle East, i.e. swarthy or brown.
            Say it ain't so... D.E. wants to wipe out that race because apparently our white skin (or, sadly currently in my case, red and sunburned skin) is better.

            In 2013 pope Francis “released a remarkable 84-page document in which he attacked unfettered capitalism as “a new tyranny,” criticized the “idolatry of money,” and urged politicians to guarantee all citizens “dignified work, education and healthcare.” Sounds more like socialism to me,
            Even at the best of times, the Catholic church is nuts. Given you don't trust them when they tell you their priests haven't been molesting any children lately, and you don't trust them to tell you whether using contraception is moral or not, and you don't trust them to tell you whether their communion wine has literally turned into blood, why would you trust their opinion about what the Bible allegedly says? They have a vested interest and a strong bias toward claiming it totally supports everything they happen to believe.

            Better to look at secular scholars who don't "believe the bible" and so don't have a dog in the fight when it comes to the interpretation of it and can weigh the evidence in an unbiased way.

            Well he sounds like a ball of fun doesn’t he and you actually admire someone who has the intention to slaughter people like me? What’d I do?
            Enjoyed sex wrong probably. That's usually the #1 no-no with repressed religious fundies. But given it's D.E., you probably refrained from killing all the blacks and refrained from breeding a pure Aryan race, and your failure to commit genocide like God commanded of the Israelite to do to the Amelikites was probably your sin.

            Nah! Not even a little bit.
            It's funny how religious folks project their own insecurities in their beliefs onto others.
            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
              In fact you can even call me pro death. I still think abortion is murder and evil, but since the people committing it are overwhelmingly enemies, who am I to deny them their own culling? All my political decisions from this point onward are purely mercenary.
              Psychotherapy might be a good idea too.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                Psychotherapy might be a good idea too.
                That should probably be compulsory for all posters in this forum, even us libtards.
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  That should probably be compulsory for all posters in this forum, even us libtards.
                  Hey, I resemble that!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Dimbulb View Post
                    Medieval historians have different theories...
                    Now there's some up-to-date scholarship.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      Well "pro-life" is a silly name for the position because most of those who are against abortion...
                      But "pro-choice" is a REALLY silly name for people who are pretty much against choice in every other arena. And killing an unborn child removes any choices that person would ever make. They can't choose whether or not they like okra, what their favorite color is, which college they will attend, who they will marry, what to do when they grow up.... NO choices.

                      Maybe they should be called the Choice Killers!
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #26

                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        Given Jesus was a brown-skinned anti-war socialist ...


                        Let's see...

                        Revelation 19 (ESV)
                        The Rider on a White Horse

                        11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.


                        So much for your anti-war socialist nonsense!

                        I think a lot of the 'Christians' in this forum would have big issues with Jesus were he alive today.
                        You should be more concerned about meeting the REAL Jesus down the road because He IS alive today!
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          Psychotherapy might be a good idea too.
                          Naw, I think you're beyond that.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Revelation 19 (ESV)
                            The Rider on a White Horse

                            11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.


                            So much for your anti-war socialist nonsense!
                            Yeah, the crazy visions in the book of Revelation don't bear much resemblance to the Jesus of the gospels.

                            You should be more concerned about meeting the REAL Jesus down the road because He IS alive today!
                            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Well, you do know how to stir up a storm.
                              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                                In fact you can even call me pro death. I still think abortion is murder and evil, but since the people committing it are overwhelmingly enemies, who am I to deny them their own culling? All my political decisions from this point onward are purely mercenary.
                                You are assuming that their children would follow in their political views or that the parents would not change in the future and regret their abortion like Dee Dee. The Holy Spirit can work on anyone.

                                *PS I realize you are just being sarcastically cynical.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                142 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                386 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                112 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                197 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                364 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X