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So, the kids are getting older...

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
    I don't think so. Have you got a quotation from someone who actually believed it?
    You're asking for citations referring to beliefs that were reasonably common 30+ years ago, or for citations of academic claims that were discredited 50+ years ago.

    Some vestiges of that belief do, however, remain. Academic resources still on occasion take pains to point out that Pilate actually did exist, and provide the evidence supporting that claim. That kind of approach isn't normally taken with regard to people who are known to have existed. But there is the occasional, very occasional, explicit reference to the mythical Pilate story:

    The existence of the discredited concept is remarked upon
    Pontius Pilate is remembered in the gospels as the Roman ruler of Judea who caved into a lynch mob's demands and had Jesus crucified. For centuries, some scholars and skeptics argued that the gospel accounts were not historically accurate. Some suggested that Pilate was merely a mythical character, a fictional creation in the Jesus myth.
    Last edited by tabibito; 01-10-2018, 03:15 AM.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      You're asking for citations referring to beliefs that were reasonably common 30+ years ago, or for citations of academic claims that were discredited 50+ years ago.

      Some vestiges of that belief do, however, remain. Academic resources still on occasion take pains to point out that Pilate actually did exist, and provide the evidence supporting that claim. That kind of approach isn't normally taken with regard to people who are known to have existed. But there is the occasional, very occasional, explicit reference to the mythical Pilate story:
      Here you can see how the discovery of the "Pilate stone" provided evidence that he existed -- something you'd only note if some had been questioning his existence: http://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2017...finding-jesus/

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        Here you can see how the discovery of the "Pilate stone" provided evidence that he existed -- something you'd only note if some had been questioning his existence: http://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2017...finding-jesus/
        It would come as no surprise if, 30 years hence, someone expressed doubts that "King David never existed" was ever touted.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #34
          It's fairly well known in current apologetic/skeptic debates that the idea that the existence of Pontius Pilate was ever doubted is an apologist myth. Doug is asking for proof, because apparently there's no evidence that anyone made this claim, or can't trace it's origin to anyone in particular.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            It's fairly well known in current apologetic/skeptic debates that the idea that the existence of Pontius Pilate was ever doubted is an apologist myth. Doug is asking for proof, because apparently there's no evidence that anyone made this claim, or can't trace it's origin to anyone in particular.
            I had to address that claim - and more than a few times - on the now defunct Webchat site, so I know first hand that the claim was still being made more than 20 years after archaeological findings had debunked the story. The problem of finding academic publications which supported the "Pilate is a myth" story, more than 50 years after it was proven false, wouldn't be easy to solve.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              I had to address that claim - and more than a few times - on the now defunct Webchat site, so I know first hand that the claim was still being made more than 20 years after archaeological findings had debunked the story. The problem of finding academic publications which supported the "Pilate is a myth" story, more than 50 years after it was proven false, wouldn't be easy to solve.
              The claim wouldn't have made sense since there's always been plenty of evidence for Pilate. The point, though, is that no one can seem to find any evidence that anyone ever actually believed this myth. People have attempted to survey liberal scholarship of the 19th and 20th century, and have come up short.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                The claim wouldn't have made sense since there's always been plenty of evidence for Pilate. The point, though, is that no one can seem to find any evidence that anyone ever actually believed this myth. People have attempted to survey liberal scholarship of the 19th and 20th century, and have come up short.
                So I have found in searches to date.

                This matter was brought up in Webchat by people who believed it. I was directed on one occasion to one of those "101 mistakes in the Bible" sites, where the claim was listed.
                However, all of the material I have checked lacks for any citation pointing to the claim. No material making the claim can be found.
                Conclusion: there was an "urban myth" that Pilate was not a real person, but the claim had no foundation in any academic (or even semi-academic) source.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  It's fairly well known in current apologetic/skeptic debates that the idea that the existence of Pontius Pilate was ever doubted is an apologist myth. Doug is asking for proof, because apparently there's no evidence that anyone made this claim, or can't trace it's origin to anyone in particular.
                  I had a guy claiming that Pontius Pilate wasn't real on a different website. The guy also thought that Constantine chose the Canon as well. He didn't give sources often, but when he did, well.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    The claim wouldn't have made sense since there's always been plenty of evidence for Pilate. The point, though, is that no one can seem to find any evidence that anyone ever actually believed this myth. People have attempted to survey liberal scholarship of the 19th and 20th century, and have come up short.
                    I've never seen any evidence for that claim and know a lot of the literature. What was doubted was the existence of the Pool of Bethesda.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
                      I've heard the Book of Joshua is pretty inaccurate, as a whole, and AFAIK there isn't any good evidence for the exodus as described in the Book of Exodus. I also heard that there is no evidence for a census around the time of Jesus' birth. Also just the whole thing about many books of the Bible being written centuries after the events they describe took place, and so should be taken with a grain of salt.
                      The exodus is a different story than Joshua. Bryant Wood has tried to redate Jericho's destruction in order to fit with the Biblical timeline, but almost nobody finds it persuasive.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
                        Maybe go at it from an angle of historical inaccuracies in the Bible...
                        Good luck. A lot of people have attempted that over the years only to prove that the Bible is, in fact, historically accurate.

                        Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
                        ...or alternatively how things that seem to have a supernatural explanation can actually have a natural explanation.
                        That doesn't work, either. First of all, many Christians don't hold to the "natural vs. supernatural" dichotomy because God can and does use the natural forces of our universe to manifest his will. For instance, when Jesus healed the man with the withered hand, this could be explained in the natural sense as nothing more than the spontaneous regeneration of nerve and muscle tissue, and why not? Lizards regrow their own tails, so why can't the human body spontaneously restore a useless limb? The miracle, however, is that it happened at Jesus' command. So was that natural, or supernatural? There's rarely a clear distinction, so even if you can come up with a natural explanation for a miracle, that doesn't in and of itself disprove the miracle.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by showmeproof View Post
                          I was a former frequent poster, but have had different interests and priorities arise. I am an atheist, happily married (now 14yrs) to a Christian. We have three children (9, 5, and 2ish). I am frequently asked by 9 and 5 about why I do not believe. I find this a difficult question to answer without an extrordinary amount of detail. I keep whittling down my answer trying to get it in a ballpark they can understand. By time I think I have the right balance, the explanation is so diluted that I find it unsatisfactory. I am sure some believers could argue the same and be right in their explanatory abilities and similar frustrations (but wrong in their conclusions 😎).

                          My main reasons for atheism reside in molecular biology, chemistry, and evolution.

                          Other reasons abound in History and the evolution of religions (especially Judaism).

                          What are the topics you find the most difficult to explain about religious or non-religious beliefs to your children? Being an atheist, I think I have a steeper hill to climb in explanatory requirements and a theist has a built-in backdoor with hyperactive agency detection; as any parent, who has to reassure their children that its perfectly okay to go upstairs and the noise they heard is just the furnace, can attest. Do any theists here believe the table is actually tilted in an atheists favor and that it is harder for the theist?
                          I know this is a question aimed at theists, but I found your difficulty a little odd. My wife is Christian. I was Christian when we met, and became atheist over the following years, completing that transition after we were married. That put some stress on our marriage, because my wife believed she was marrying a fellow theist and then found herself with a heathen in her bed. But how we approached our children was fairly simple: we each shared what we believed honestly, when they asked, without an attempt to "convert." We wanted them to find their own way. When my boys asked why I did not believe in god, my answer was always the same: "if you are going to believe something - you have to have a reason for believing it. I have no reason to believe in a god, so I don't believe in one."

                          My wife shared her faith, and her reasons for having it. The boys went to Sunday school because she wanted them to. They went to church (for a while) because she wanted them to. Ultimately, both of them rejected religion and, today, both are also atheists. They are young men; no longer children. My wife has become increasingly disenchanted with religions. She still believes in god, but she has no use for any organized religious group anymore.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            A lot of people have attempted that over the years only to prove that the Bible is, in fact, historically accurate.
                            Many people say so. That doesn't make it so.

                            Comment

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