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Memorial set up for Victim of a crime disrupted by disrespectful leftist activists.

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  • #61
    It should go without saying, that in an ideal world, our politicians would unite both rhetoric and rational discourse in their oeuvre.

    But, repeating myself, as Trump has shown, reaching the hearts of people is more important in a democracy than reaching their minds.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
      I think I stated it a bit confusingly then. That's probably likely since I wrote that late at night. Factual debates are very different than what you see in the typical political arena. Trump is not a factual debater, and the examples I gave, Spencer, Coulter, Milo, aren't people who engaged in typical rational discourse. They're the ones getting the attention though, and yes since they're not engaged in rational debate, it takes someone who is a master of rhetorics to take them down, put them on the clock and make them answer their assertions.

      Newt Gingrich has been caught stating falsely that crime rate was going up nationally and when this was pointed out to him (the FBI found out the opposite was true, though it was on the rise in certain pockets) he simply said something to the effect of "The average american doesn't feel that... as a political candidate I will go by how people feel and I'll let you go with the theoriticians" Thereby justifying him stating something contrary to objective statistics. "Liberals have a whole bunch of statistics which theoretically may be right, but its not where human beings are."

      In an age where, given Trump's victory, facts don't matter. Trump certainly hasn't lost traction for stating false things, that still resonated with the voters. I don't see the utility of rational debate in the public because of that. It still has a place, but that place is more academic for the time being. Newt Gingrich and Trump have both just made up facts. How do you trump that in a debate? If you counter them with statistics they'll say those are false, etc...

      In an age where feelings trump facts, political movements need people with rhetoric and charisma.

      This is a deep problem related to the issue of various news organisations creating entire eco systems of news catering to specific world views. I don't know exactly how to fight that problem yet. Rhetorical debate and protests, are just symptom treatment. But I can't deny their importance in these times.
      Your analysis is fascinatingly one-sided, and shows a lack of historical awareness. Politics, from every side, and from the dawn of history, has been a place where feeling and rhetoric trump facts. Politicians who emphasize facts are rather more likely than not to be distorting facts (by embellishment, selectivity, and/or sweeping inconvenient ones under the rug) to comport with their feelings. I don't like it any more than you do, but there it is.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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      • #63
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Your analysis is fascinatingly one-sided, and shows a lack of historical awareness. Politics, from every side, and from the dawn of history, has been a place where feeling and rhetoric trump facts. Politicians who emphasize facts are rather more likely than not to be distorting facts (by embellishment, selectivity, and/or sweeping inconvenient ones under the rug) to comport with their feelings. I don't like it any more than you do, but there it is.
        In that case there's nothing to disagree with, then in political matters we need actions that speak to those places as well. That I only used Republican examples is irrelevant here. These days they've been eggregiously anti-science. The Trump administration recently told the CDC they were banned from using words like "evidence-based" or "science-based" when assessing treatments. They also couldn't use the word "fetus", "vulnerable", "entitlement", "diversity" or "transgender".

        This is on the heels of the EPA getting a censorship on them speaking out on climate change before getting their science reports vetted by the Trump administration.

        At this point I'm just waiting for Betsy Devos to fire a salvo against the Dover trial outcomes, so they can get creationism into the schools.
        Last edited by Leonhard; 12-16-2017, 04:08 AM.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          In that case there's nothing to disagree with, then in political matters we need actions that speak to those places as well. That I only used Republican examples is irrelevant here. <snip "anti-science" bugbear>
          It is wholly relevant, as it implies the problem is only recent and on one side, the side you don't happen to like.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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