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Net Neutrality

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  • Net Neutrality

    I have been pretty unambiguous about my dislike of Mr. Trump, both his person and many of his policies. But I also believe in giving credit where credit is due. Today's reversal of the Net Neutrality policies of the FCC is a case in point - sort of.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...=.7ac7a6914d9b

    I know a lot of technologist and most people support the concept of Net Neutrality. In a sense - so do I. But the way it was being enforced was the wrong tool for the right job. The way it was being enforced was requiring the Internet Service Providers (ISP) to treat all traffic equally - with the goal of not allowing them to give preferential treatment to one company over another. The fear is that they would then treat folks who pay them extra better than others, and treat their own services best of all. So Verizon, for example, could give preferential network treatment to NetFlix if NetFlix paid, but give the best treatment to their own video services.

    This goal is laudable, because it keeps big players from acing smaller players out of the market because they have more cash and more power. This policy SHOULD continue (se we disagree on that point). But the means to that ends was all wrong. Forcing the ISP to treat all packets equally ignores a basic reality: some application types REQUIRE different treatment by the network we know as the "Internet" for them to function reliably. Most notably, any application that has sigificant time sensitivity (e.g., interactive voice - as in "telephone" and most video-related services). Because the providers are prohibited from handling the packets that support these services differently, we all have that experience of our video stalling, or the voice quality going to the dogs, if someone starts a large file transfer or otherwise competes with the bandwidth of our service.

    Due to Net Neutrality regulations, we are all still paying (directly or indirectly) for two largely separate networks: the public telephone network, and the Internet. If these regulations are eliminated, voice over the Internet can become more reliable, and the 130 year-old telephone network can die the death it should have died 15-20 years ago.

    Net Neutrality HAS to be reframed in terms of laws against anti-competitive practices, rather than rules about the technology of the Internet.

    I applaud the FCC shift today.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  • #2

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    • #3
      I really don't know enough to make a really informed opinion on Net Neutrality. I'm more concerned about the small set of companies that can shut-off a site on the web. Today, Der Sturmer (sp?), tomorrow TWeb!
      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

      Comment


      • #4
        Net Neutrality HAS to be reframed in terms of laws against anti-competitive practices, rather than rules about the technology of the Internet.
        ** sarcasm on **

        I'm sure Verizon and Comcast sitting on their respective monopolies are really eager to have that happen, and will lobby every bit as hard as they did to repeal Net Neutrality, to ensure such laws. I'm sure that's the only reason, and only end goal they had in mind when they repealed it.

        ** sarcasm off **

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          ** sarcasm on **

          I'm sure Verizon and Comcast sitting on their respective monopolies are really eager to have that happen, and will lobby every bit as hard as they did to repeal Net Neutrality, to ensure such laws. I'm sure that's the only reason, and only end goal they had in mind when they repealed it.

          ** sarcasm off **
          so far verizon and comcast haven't banished people from the internet because the ceo woke up in a bad mood
          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
            ** sarcasm on **

            I'm sure Verizon and Comcast sitting on their respective monopolies are really eager to have that happen, and will lobby every bit as hard as they did to repeal Net Neutrality, to ensure such laws. I'm sure that's the only reason, and only end goal they had in mind when they repealed it.

            ** sarcasm off **
            Laws against monopolies and anti-competitive practices are already on the books, and there's not much to Verizon and Comcast can do about it.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • #7
              looks like reddit is down the nerds seem very, very angry and animated about this
              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                looks like reddit is down the nerds seem very, very angry and animated about this
                I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                  Not sure what the point is...?
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                    I really don't know enough to make a really informed opinion on Net Neutrality. I'm more concerned about the small set of companies that can shut-off a site on the web. Today, Der Sturmer (sp?), tomorrow TWeb!
                    That is, IMO, an absolutely valid concern. Let's call that the "screw" that needs to be set.

                    The existing Net Neutrality rules are essentially a hammer - the wrong tool for the job. And while you CAN drive in a screw with a hammer - you're going to do a lot of damage in the process. What is really needed is a screwdriver.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      ** sarcasm on **

                      I'm sure Verizon and Comcast sitting on their respective monopolies are really eager to have that happen, and will lobby every bit as hard as they did to repeal Net Neutrality, to ensure such laws. I'm sure that's the only reason, and only end goal they had in mind when they repealed it.

                      ** sarcasm off **
                      Oh I don't doubt that is true. So when (and if) true anti-competitive rule making for the Internet is discussed, I have every confidence they will fight that too!
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        Not sure what the point is...?
                        The reason why net neutrality is being repealed. They've already in the past tried to throttle websites, especially in favor of their own services.

                        The Net Neutrality Law wasn't perfect, but you damn well those companies aren't out to try to make a happy libertarian fantasy internet of free competition. If the repeal manages to survive Congress and the courts, well, haven't we just given them the key to do whatever they want?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          Oh I don't doubt that is true. So when (and if) true anti-competitive rule making for the Internet is discussed, I have every confidence they will fight that too!
                          So given that it could be over a decade before anyone manages to get something like that through, why is it a good thing Net Neutrality is repealed now?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                            So given that it could be over a decade before anyone manages to get something like that through, why is it a good thing Net Neutrality is repealed now?
                            Because, as MM noted, we already HAVE laws against anti-trust and anti-competitive practices that can be used to hold businesses accountable. Meanwhile, eliminating the Net Neutrality rules as written opens the door to some important Internet innovations, and to a simplification of our worldwide communications that have a significant potential to reduce their cost.

                            Today, an extremely large percentage (70-80%, depending on who's numbers you believe) of the public switched telephone network (PSTN) uses exactly the same technology implemented by the Internet. But, the network has to be kept separate (at least logically) because, to ensure it's correct operation, packets need to be delivered within a very narrow window of time (generally less than 300 milliseconds, or about 1/3 of a second). Television and video conferencing applications have the same problem - but on steroids. A single television frame can consume several kilobytes of information (tens of kilobytes for HD), and a new frame needs to be delivered every 1/30th of a second (in North America) to keep the video stable. If it is interactive, the transmission time from source to destination again cannot exceed 300 ms. So even cable companies put their television in a separate pipe to keep it stable, increasing the cost of THEIR infrastructure as well.

                            Eliminating the NN rules mean these carries can now consolidate these networks, reduce their costs, and effectively increase their bandwidth. That means higher speed services for all of us, and the ability to buy our "phone" service as an application over the Internet from ANY provider, with the same quality - increasing competition (which usually sparks innovation and reduces service costs).

                            The key will be ensuring that existing anti-trust and anti anti-competition laws are enforced, preventing these providers from degrading the service of any given provider in favor of their own or their bottom line.

                            Sorry - I got wordy again. This is, after all, my field of specialty!
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              Not sure what the point is...?
                              I think he's implying that without "net neutrality" that ISP's are going to start charging for tiers of service the same way cable companies charge extra for premium channels on top of their basic package.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment

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