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Assessment of Mr. Trump

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  • #76
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Well I had responded to this, but the response got lost, so maybe that's a good thing as I have no inclination to repeat the whole thing. I'll sum up.
    [*]I have no idea what it means to hold a comedian "accountable," or what you're trying to help them accountable to.
    Accountable to their own words of course, and to their impressionable audiences. There's a famous video of Jon Stewart lambasting the talking heads on Crossfire when he was invited to that show once. He made the remark that Crossfire was helping the politicians in a biased way, while he and his show weren't accountable for what he said about politics because he was on a comedy show. Like I said, it's the height of dishonesty. People like him, and Colbert, and Oliver, and the like know exactly what they're doing. They're using their shows as a platform to preach their political views. They're absolutely no different from people like Limbaugh and Savage. You're name dropping popular non-news entertainers/writers like Anne Coulter, and giving a pass to Stewart because Stewart doesn't fit your narrative even when they're the flip sides of the same coin.

    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    [*]I do not conflate television shows with news media outlets. TV shows are made ot make money, so if a left-leaning show makes more money that a right-leaning show, that's what't going to be made.
    If you think news media outlets aren't out to make money, then you're in denial. Most of the talking heads you mentioned aren't actually serious news journalists, they're news entertainment talk show hosts.

    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    [*]I think comedians and comedy shows go where the comedy is. Right now, Trump is the comedy. And, frankly, the right takes itself so damn seriously, they are pretty easy targets. After all, when the groups claiming moral superiority line up behind a man like Trump - that has enormous comedic value.
    Stewart, Oliver, Colbert, Samantha Bee, Bill Maher, Trevor Noah, SNL, and the like were all politically oriented long before Trump became president.

    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    [*]I've seen the articles - and the accusations. None of them have convinced. It's certainly not a "proven fact." Are the media dead center? No. Most are slightly left of center, pretty much like me. Are they "leftists" to the degree Fox and Brietbart talk it up? No. Fox and Brietbart need to keep pushing that button to justify their existence. I don't buy it.
    Oh brother. You're out of it man.

    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    [*]www.allsides.com is not "on my side." They aren't on anyone's side. They are simply a good place to go to get news across the spectrum with the bias of the various outlets clearly marked, and based on the reader's opinions. Anyone can go and vote for any media as left/right/center. In general, the distribution is pretty close to what I would have voted for.[/LIST]
    By "on you side" I mean, they are a source that you use. You've said as much. Apparently they're no help to you.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      I have seen no one do a definitive study about this
      I literally gave you one in post #57.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        Monumental? Rogue - the economy was on a path of recovery throughout Obama's term. The trajectory has not adjusted all that much. What "monumental" shift are you seeing in the data? And where is that data?
        Really? Virtually overnight the GDP has doubled from what we experienced for 8 years under Obama. That is one heck of a change in trajectory in anyone's book.

        What is hilarious is that during his two terms Obama constantly chanted a mantra that the lackluster economy was George Bush's fault and there was nothing he could do about it. Moreover, he, backed by a chorus of liberal economists, politicians and the MSM, insisted that this was the new norm. That the days of vigorous economic growth were over as the world economy had changed so much as to make it impossible. Then the first three quarters under Trump have seen +3% GDP growth and now Obama is scrambling to take credit for what he repeatedly proclaimed was no longer possible

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          I'm not arguing that people in the media are not broadly more liberal than conservative, Rogue. I'm saying that the news itself tends to be more balanced. We can all come up with list after list of examples and quotes to make our individual cases. I can point to the 10 NYT articles in six days just before the 2016 election that were about Hillary's emails. But as I have said multiple times, examples are not arguments - they're just examples and anyone can find examples to support any position if they look hard enough. The data does not support the hype. I have seen no one do a definitive study about this - so what we are all left with is "impressions" and the "rough" data of social networking sites like www.allsides.com and the wide array of published articles about media and media bias (search for them), which pretty uniformly put the so-called "MSM" slightly left of center.

          The accusation that it is grossly "left" is just not accurate, IMO. But if you have data (not anecdotes) to support your position, I'll be happy to look at it. I have no such data other than the informal surveys I have pointed to.
          Read those quotes again. They're quite open about their bias. Even to the point that it amounts to roughly a 15 point boost for Democrats during elections.

          Read again about how the members of JournoList worked together to tamp down stories that hurt Obama and to figure out how to thwart Sarah Palin.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Really? Virtually overnight the GDP has doubled from what we experienced for 8 years under Obama. That is one heck of a change in trajectory in anyone's book.

            What is hilarious is that during his two terms Obama constantly chanted a mantra that the lackluster economy was George Bush's fault and there was nothing he could do about it. Moreover, he, backed by a chorus of liberal economists, politicians and the MSM, insisted that this was the new norm. That the days of vigorous economic growth were over as the world economy had changed so much as to make it impossible. Then the first three quarters under Trump have seen +3% GDP growth and now Obama is scrambling to take credit for what he repeatedly proclaimed was no longer possible
            Umm... I'm looking at the GDP charts. If you narrowly focus on the last three quarters, yes, the GDP doubled in the 2nd and 3rd quarters over the previous quarter. It has also hit level hit in 2015, and approach in 2016 - one quarter in each year. And the over-all trajectory shows no significant spike (https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth). Pay close attention to the graph at the center of the page and look at it from various perspectives.

            Depending on which range you look at, we're either in a period of modest growth, or just part of an overall pattern of reduced GDP. Two quarters, in the overarching data, is not statistically significant - and is essentially a continuation of a trend we've been seeing since 2012.

            Sorry - but I'm just not seeing the "monumental." It appears to me you're looking at two data points and doing a LOT of extrapolation.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              No, actually it's called compromise which is a word no longer in the republican party vocabulary.
              During the previous Administration Obama haughtily told Eric Cantor "Look at the polls. The polls are pretty good for me right now. Elections have consequences. And Eric, I won" when Cantor offered to negotiate on the stimulus package. Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel in his usual cordial manner put it another way: "We have the votes. F-word them."

              Obama made it crystal clear that he did not need to or want to talk to any Republicans[1]. He said it was useless because they were in his view too extreme while simultaneously offering to open up unilateral talks with America's sworn enemies (obviously because they were more reasonable than the Republicans ).

              That is how the Democrats compromised.








              1. Obama and the Democrats in the House and Senate refused to even consider a single Republican proposal during the first two years. And after the Republican landslide in 2010 Obama had to actually ask his aides if they knew how to contact the incoming Republican leadership because he never talked to them before.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Read those quotes again. They're quite open about their bias. Even to the point that it amounts to roughly a 15 point boost for Democrats during elections.

                Read again about how the members of JournoList worked together to tamp down stories that hurt Obama and to figure out how to thwart Sarah Palin.
                I read all of the quotes, Rogue. Like I've said before, anecdotes and examples are not arguments.

                This is an error people today seem to continually make. They point to the one person who was shot by an immigrant and say "see - immigrants are dangerous." They point to quotes, and examples, thinking they are actually saying something. I have trained myself to spot these and reject them - from left or right. An example or an anecdote is a good thing to help explain a concept. They are meaningless when attempting to establish a trendline or prove a point.

                The vast majority of the data associated with those trendlines, as "informal" as they are, stand in opposition to your anecdotes. Much as I would prefer more solid data, even "rough" data beats anecdotes and examples every day of the week (to me).
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  I read all of the quotes, Rogue. Like I've said before, anecdotes and examples are not arguments.
                  Those aren't anecdotes. They're stark admissions.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Those aren't anecdotes. They're stark admissions.
                    By some people in the media, Rogue. That's what makes them anecdotes. Your citing the opinions of individuals about the overall industry. I don't base my beliefs on individual opinions - though they can inform me to some degree. What I don't have, and your list doesn't provide, is how many people said the opposite, or came down in the middle. I don't have any information about even these people's contexts. So what you have given me is a list of "admissions" collected by someone with a clearly right-wing bias to make a point about a position they clearly have a pre-conception about.

                    That is not a basis for me to alter my views or come to a different conclusion. I prefer the (even rough) data of media comparisons found throughout the Internet, and the crowd-sourced rankings on www.allsides.com. It may be rough data (and I wish there were better), but at least it's a rough "voting" perspective of inidividuals across the political spectrum, rather than a single person's perspective. And since it aligns with so many other information rankings, I am reasonably confident about its accuracy - until better data comes along.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      One of the things that brought me back to TWeb is the current political climate. It is my impression that our country is too polarized, and we are all living in our own little partisan bubble - without much listening to the other side.

                      I've not been shy about my feelings concerning Mr. Trump, and I won't waste everyone's time relisting his shortcomings (IMO) here. What I would really like to know, especially from those whgo are his supporters, what you believe to be both his strengths and his weaknesses. I'm curious to know what it is the right, especially the Christian right, finds attractive in this man - and whether or not you see him as having any shortcomings.

                      And no - this is not "bait." I have no intension of trying to convince anyone that my view of the man is "right." I'm just trying to understand the perspective from the other side.
                      I very much agree that our nation is extremely polarized. It seems to me that you are on one extreme. Compromise you suggest is in order, but you were not even willing to discuss my suggested compromises. The only compromise you seem willing to consider are ones that move us drastically to the left.

                      What exactly is our polarization? Conservatives want to hold onto the values that have made this nation what it is. Progressives want to try everything new that they can think of. The entire field of sexuality is to change, abortion is to be seen as desirable (or at best a sad affair to be ignored), ownership of guns is to be made a negative, and worst of all government which is proven to be corrupt and unreliable is to have a much greater control over the behavior of individuals in all areas. You seem to me to be a supreme hypocrite.
                      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        No, actually it's called compromise which is a word no longer in the republican party vocabulary.
                        It seems to be an action that progressives seem to eschew. The only compromise they (and you) seem willing to consider are compromises that surrender to the progressive agenda.
                        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                          I very much agree that our nation is extremely polarized. It seems to me that you are on one extreme. Compromise you suggest is in order, but you were not even willing to discuss my suggested compromises. The only compromise you seem willing to consider are ones that move us drastically to the left.
                          I have no idea what "compromises" you're referring to. You'll have to remind me - or link me to the post.

                          Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                          What exactly is our polarization? Conservatives want to hold onto the values that have made this nation what it is. Progressives want to try everything new that they can think of. The entire field of sexuality is to change, abortion is to be seen as desirable (or at best a sad affair to be ignored), ownership of guns is to be made a negative, and worst of all government which is proven to be corrupt and unreliable is to have a much greater control over the behavior of individuals in all areas. You seem to me to be a supreme hypocrite.
                          Sorry you feel that way, Jed. I'm not sure what else there is to say.

                          Except that the idea that conservatives are the only ones that want to hold to values our nation is built upon is simply wrong - and a good example of exactly the polarization I have been referring to.
                          Last edited by carpedm9587; 12-17-2017, 09:46 PM.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Virtually overnight the GDP has doubled from what we experienced for 8 years under Obama. That is one heck of a change in trajectory in anyone's book.
                            The GDP doubling would indeed be one heck of a change in trajectory. Someone would have to call the Guinness Book of World Records because it would be historic.

                            Pretty sure you're talking about a tiny short term increase in the usually fluctuating GDP growth rate, not the GDP itself doubling which normally takes >20 years.
                            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              No, actually it's called compromise which is a word no longer in the republican party vocabulary.
                              Yeah, that seems to be one of the biggest problems with the US today.

                              Obama and his team when they were running in 2008 seem to have firmly believed that they would be able to break the climate of partisanship in D.C. by compromising more with the Republicans than Democrats had ever done before. In Obama's book Audacity of Hope he talks about how the Democrats need to be prepared to abandon their 'sacred cows' and give into Republican demands to cut medicare and social security etc in order to achieve bipartisan compromises. His whole political strategy was to offer the Republicans a better deal than they had ever been offered before and thus achieve a 'Grand Bargain'. Obama seems to have seen himself as a centrist who could work with both sides of the aisle and negotiate great compromises.

                              Unfortunately, the Republicans infamously had a big strategy meeting the night of Obama's inauguration and decided their strategy was to try and make him a 1-term president by stopping him from achieving anything at all. They agreed that no matter what Obama offered, they would never ever compromise or agree with him. While they failed at making him a 1 term president, they nonetheless broke nearly all records for obstructionism, ranging from breaking the filibuster record for legislation to the second-longest government shutdown in US history through to simply ignoring his Supreme Court nominee.

                              I am personally not a fan of Obama, and regard him as being extremely politically naive - he tried the same strategy of working towards compromise with the republicans and them refusing him for at least 6 years of his 8 year term before he eventually got it into his skull it wasn't going to work and finally started doing some helpful executive orders.

                              But the Republican inability to compromise has been causing pretty serious problems within their own party, with the particularly-insanely-uncompromising 'Freedom Caucus' causing such disunity among House Republicans that they seemed to have trouble even getting a House Speaker they could all agree on - after some pretty desperate seeming negotiations Paul Ryan was chosen as the only person all sides could agree on. Given he's apparently going to retire next year rather than lose his seat to the challenger who's beating him in the polls, it seems like the Republicans may have a problem even finding a Speaker of the House they can agree on. And earlier this year we saw their Healthcare bill fail because the sides within the Republican party couldn't compromise with each other enough to find a healthcare bill they could agree on.
                              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                                Yeah, that seems to be one of the biggest problems with the US today.

                                Obama and his team when they were running in 2008 seem to have firmly believed that they would be able to break the climate of partisanship in D.C. by compromising more with the Republicans than Democrats had ever done before. In Obama's book Audacity of Hope he talks about how the Democrats need to be prepared to abandon their 'sacred cows' and give into Republican demands to cut medicare and social security etc in order to achieve bipartisan compromises. His whole political strategy was to offer the Republicans a better deal than they had ever been offered before and thus achieve a 'Grand Bargain'. Obama seems to have seen himself as a centrist who could work with both sides of the aisle and negotiate great compromises.



                                Which of course explains why from the very onset Obama sneered at any attempt from Republicans to negotiate with him.

                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                During the previous Administration Obama haughtily told Eric Cantor "Look at the polls. The polls are pretty good for me right now. Elections have consequences. And Eric, I won" when Cantor offered to negotiate on the stimulus package. Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel in his usual cordial manner put it another way: "We have the votes. F-word them."

                                Obama made it crystal clear that he did not need to or want to talk to any Republicans[1]. He said it was useless because they were in his view too extreme while simultaneously offering to open up unilateral talks with America's sworn enemies (obviously because they were more reasonable than the Republicans ).

                                That is how the Democrats compromised.








                                1. Obama and the Democrats in the House and Senate refused to even consider a single Republican proposal during the first two years. And after the Republican landslide in 2010 Obama had to actually ask his aides if they knew how to contact the incoming Republican leadership because he never talked to them before.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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