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Does an Omniscient Creator Lead to Fatalism?

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  • Does an Omniscient Creator Lead to Fatalism?

    I'll start with two assumptions that I think most Christians can agree with.

    1. God is Omniscient.He is all knowing of all things through all time. He is able to see ever chain of cause and effect through to its end.
    2. God created the universe. My point doesn't depend on the mechanism of creation simply that God initiated it.

    If these two assumptions hold then prior to God creating the universe he was able to know what would happen if he were to create that universe. He has able to see every global event, and every personal event that would occur if he were to go through with creating that particular universe. He would also have been able to consider other universes that he could have created. Ones with different fundamental laws of physics, ones where DNA strands operate differently, ones where the nature of peoples hearts are different, even ones where everything is identical to the current universe except that instead of having coffee this morning you had tea. An omniscient and omnipotent God had all of these options before him and yet he chose to create the universe we live in. Seeing as how he knew exactly what would happen if he were to create the world, and he had other options for worlds he could create wouldn't that make life one big simulation.

    Doesn't this break the idea of free will. I am familiar with and am comfortable with many of the explanations of how there can be free will with an omniscient God (ie. knowing that someone will do something doesn't take away their choice to do that thing). However none of these explanations (that I can find) address the issue that if you know what someone will do if you create them, and you could also create them differently knowing what they would do in that case as well, then how does this creation have any choice in what they do. They are just the result of you picking to create that particular instance.

    I am really struggling to resolve this idea in my head, and have been praying that I will come to peace with it, but I just can't let go of it.

  • #2
    Does an omniscient creator lead to fatalism? No.

    The key to the problem lies in what is said (in scripture, that is) about God's all-knowingness. Does holy writ define omniscience as knowing everything; past, present, and future down to the last minute detail?

    Isaac Asimov explored the concept (to some extent) with psycho-history in his "Foundation" series.

    As you have noted, the standard current concepts of omniscience DO in fact lead inescapably to fatalism - so either Calvinists are right, or the current concept is wrong.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      Does an omniscient creator lead to fatalism? No.

      The key to the problem lies in what is said (in scripture, that is) about God's all-knowingness. Does holy writ define omniscience as knowing everything; past, present, and future down to the last minute detail?
      So would you say God has no knowledge of the future (outside of that which can be inferred)? Just perfect knowledge of the past and present?

      Scriptures like psalms 139 seem to point towards God be omniscient down to the minute detail. Unless we just write this off as poetic hyperbole.

      Comment


      • #4
        Perhaps omniscience simply means knowing everything that can be known - with some things being inherently unknowable. The outcomes of all possible decisions (which might be one of a hundred or more options) might be known to the nth degree. But the choice of a particular option might ultimately be unknowable until it has been made ... free will would point to that possibility, and it would explain a number of prophecies in which fulfilment is based on an "if."

        Mostly, the standard viewpoints rely on the idea that the future already exists. If it doesn't exist, it would almost certainly be unknowable - although extrapolation of available data might give certainty regarding cause-and-effect events, extrapolation from a decision that hasn't been made yet would be less certain.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #5
          If you have perfect knowledge of all that exists then you should be able to extrapolated perfectly and chain these extrapolations ad infinitum. Unless God is also bound by Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and can't fully observe the state of things. I guess maybe we have some sort of metaphysical component to our decision making (call it a soul or will or whatever) that is unobservable to God. Or perhaps these things are observable but God chooses to remain ignorant to them (for what reason I don't know, maybe he likes the suspense?).

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by mythas View Post
            If you have perfect knowledge of all that exists then you should be able to extrapolated perfectly and chain these extrapolations ad infinitum.
            Assuming that there was only one possible outcome for each event, you would be right. However, if multiple outcomes are possible, it would come down to probability.
            Unless God is also bound by Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and can't fully observe the state of things.
            The capacity for free decision (even if it is severely limited by circumstances) would be analagous to the Heisenberg principle, I think.
            I guess maybe we have some sort of metaphysical component to our decision making (call it a soul or will or whatever) that is unobservable to God. Or perhaps these things are observable but God chooses to remain ignorant to them (for what reason I don't know, maybe he likes the suspense?).
            Unpredictable would seem a reasonable conclusion - it would take a very solid argument to make me consider the possibility of unobservable.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #7
              It's the old "God's omniscience versus freewill" debate.

              One solution to this difficulty is that God's knowledge of what would happen in the universe occurred simultaneously with his creation of the universe. That is to say that at the moment of creation, God saw the entirety of the universe's history from beginning to end, and God, being outside of the universe and its temporal constraints, is able to see every freewill decision we will ever make because, from his perspective, he's already seen us make them. It's a bit like watching a movie, and then watching it a second time -- you know what's going to happen because you've already seen it happen. Or suppose you have a time machine, and one day you observe a man slip on a banana peel, and you find it so hilarious that you travel 5-minutes into the past to watch it again. Now, does your foreknowledge predestine the man to slip on the banana peel? No, because your foreknowledge is the result and not the cause.

              However, I also believe that God is able to interact with our universe and change things as he wills, so nothing is fixed in place.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                It's the old "God's omniscience versus freewill" debate.

                One solution to this difficulty is that God's knowledge of what would happen in the universe occurred simultaneously with his creation of the universe. That is to say that at the moment of creation, God saw the entirety of the universe's history from beginning to end, and God, being outside of the universe and its temporal constraints, is able to see every freewill decision we will ever make because, from his perspective, he's already seen us make them. It's a bit like watching a movie, and then watching it a second time -- you know what's going to happen because you've already seen it happen. Or suppose you have a time machine, and one day you observe a man slip on a banana peel, and you find it so hilarious that you travel 5-minutes into the past to watch it again. Now, does your foreknowledge predestine the man to slip on the banana peel? No, because your foreknowledge is the result and not the cause.

                However, I also believe that God is able to interact with our universe and change things as he wills, so nothing is fixed in place.
                God in His omniscience absolutely foreknows all things. Foreknowing is not foreseeing nor the causing of those events. God's agent, His Son, is the means by which God has chosen to cause what He will cause (Ephesians 3:9; John 1:3). His Son in His deity with His Father has by the will of His Father chosen to limit His foreknowledge in some things (Genesis 22:12; Mark 13:32; Acts 1:7).
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  It's a bit like watching a movie, and then watching it a second time -- you know what's going to happen because you've already seen it happen. Or suppose you have a time machine, and one day you observe a man slip on a banana peel, and you find it so hilarious that you travel 5-minutes into the past to watch it again. Now, does your foreknowledge predestine the man to slip on the banana peel? No, because your foreknowledge is the result and not the cause.
                  I'm quite comfortable with this idea and don't have any issue with it. The only issue I have if you are the writer of the movie and you know the man will slip on the banana. If you choose to make that movie then you have caused the man to slip. However you address this concern with the following idea.

                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  One solution to this difficulty is that God's knowledge of what would happen in the universe occurred simultaneously with his creation of the universe. That is to say that at the moment of creation, God saw the entirety of the universe's history from beginning to end, and God, being outside of the universe and its temporal constraints, is able to see every freewill decision we will ever make because, from his perspective, he's already seen us make them.
                  This answer feels a bit hokie to me. It really puts a limit on both Gods power and his ability to know things. It implies that God was shocked by his own creation, that it wasn't what he expected or intended to make. It essentially makes us a bit of an accident.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by mythas View Post
                    I'll start with two assumptions that I think most Christians can agree with.

                    1. God is Omniscient.He is all knowing of all things through all time. He is able to see ever chain of cause and effect through to its end.
                    2. God created the universe. My point doesn't depend on the mechanism of creation simply that God initiated it.

                    If these two assumptions hold then prior to God creating the universe he was able to know what would happen if he were to create that universe. He has able to see every global event, and every personal event that would occur if he were to go through with creating that particular universe. He would also have been able to consider other universes that he could have created. Ones with different fundamental laws of physics, ones where DNA strands operate differently, ones where the nature of peoples hearts are different, even ones where everything is identical to the current universe except that instead of having coffee this morning you had tea. An omniscient and omnipotent God had all of these options before him and yet he chose to create the universe we live in. Seeing as how he knew exactly what would happen if he were to create the world, and he had other options for worlds he could create wouldn't that make life one big simulation.

                    Doesn't this break the idea of free will. I am familiar with and am comfortable with many of the explanations of how there can be free will with an omniscient God (ie. knowing that someone will do something doesn't take away their choice to do that thing). However none of these explanations (that I can find) address the issue that if you know what someone will do if you create them, and you could also create them differently knowing what they would do in that case as well, then how does this creation have any choice in what they do. They are just the result of you picking to create that particular instance.

                    I am really struggling to resolve this idea in my head, and have been praying that I will come to peace with it, but I just can't let go of it.
                    Foreknowledge is not causation. God's knowing what would happen does not necessarily mean He caused it.
                    Last edited by seer; 12-19-2017, 06:44 AM.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mythas View Post
                      I'm quite comfortable with this idea and don't have any issue with it. The only issue I have if you are the writer of the movie and you know the man will slip on the banana. If you choose to make that movie then you have caused the man to slip. However you address this concern with the following idea.



                      This answer feels a bit hokie to me. It really puts a limit on both Gods power and his ability to know things. It implies that God was shocked by his own creation, that it wasn't what he expected or intended to make. It essentially makes us a bit of an accident.
                      If we have a freewill then necessarily, our decisions cause God's foreknowledge of those decisions. But because God, in his infinite capacity, also foreknows every potential outcome, he's not surprised or caught off guard. As I once heard it explained, if I leave my house and turn left, God knows everything that will result from that decision, but he also knows what would happen if I turned right, or went straight ahead, or didn't leave the house at all.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mythas View Post
                        ... except that instead of having coffee this morning you had tea.
                        That's not a conceivable universe.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Foreknowledge is not causation. God's knowing what would happen does not necessarily mean He caused it.
                          So then, if it isn't gods knowledge of the future that's associated with the cause of that future, then in what way does he have knowledge of that future? In other words, if the future does not exist, what is it's cause, and if it isn't god, then how does god know what it will be? If you say I don't know, if you have no answer whatsoever, then we can all assume that you are wrong. We've had this discussion so many times seer, and never do you have an actual answer to this question. Your only response is that foreknowledge is not itself causation, even though the opposing argument is not that foreknowledge is the cause. The argument is that god is the cause, having foreknowledge is just the evidence that god is the cause.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
                            So then, if it isn't gods knowledge of the future that's associated with the cause of that future, then in what way does he have knowledge of that future? In other words, if the future does not exist, what is it's cause, and if it isn't god, then how does god know what it will be? If you say I don't know, if you have no answer whatsoever, then we can all assume that you are wrong. We've had this discussion so many times seer, and never do you have an actual answer to this question. Your only response is that foreknowledge is not itself causation, even though the opposing argument is not that foreknowledge is the cause. The argument is that god is the cause, having foreknowledge is just the evidence that god is the cause.
                            Suppose you have a time machine, and you observe a man go about his daily business. Now if you travel back in time, you have foreknowledge of what the man will do that day, but your knowledge is not the cause of his actions; rather, your knowledge is the result of his actions.

                            God, being outside of the universe's temporal limits, is able to observe the whole of universal history from beginning to end. From my perspective, God knows what I will do in the future. From God's perspective, he knows because he's already seen me do it.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              Suppose you have a time machine, and you observe a man go about his daily business. Now if you travel back in time, you have foreknowledge of what the man will do that day, but your knowledge is not the cause of his actions; rather, your knowledge is the result of his actions.

                              God, being outside of the universe's temporal limits, is able to observe the whole of universal history from beginning to end. From my perspective, God knows what I will do in the future. From God's perspective, he knows because he's already seen me do it.
                              If you could travel into the future, then obviously the future already exists, ergo obviously there is no such thing as free will.
                              Last edited by JimL; 12-19-2017, 11:31 AM.

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