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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Does an Omniscient Creator Lead to Fatalism?
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Seriously, Jimmy, claiming that "if you can travel into the future then the future already exists" shows such a fundamental ignorance of the theoretical, scientific, and philosophical principles involved that I'm at a loss as to where to begin answering you simply because it would take more time and energy than I'm willing to invest.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by mythas View PostI'll start with two assumptions that I think most Christians can agree with.
1. God is Omniscient.He is all knowing of all things through all time. He is able to see ever chain of cause and effect through to its end.
2. God created the universe. My point doesn't depend on the mechanism of creation simply that God initiated it.
If these two assumptions hold then prior to God creating the universe he was able to know what would happen if he were to create that universe. He has able to see every global event, and every personal event that would occur if he were to go through with creating that particular universe. He would also have been able to consider other universes that he could have created. Ones with different fundamental laws of physics, ones where DNA strands operate differently, ones where the nature of peoples hearts are different, even ones where everything is identical to the current universe except that instead of having coffee this morning you had tea. An omniscient and omnipotent God had all of these options before him and yet he chose to create the universe we live in. Seeing as how he knew exactly what would happen if he were to create the world, and he had other options for worlds he could create wouldn't that make life one big simulation.
Doesn't this break the idea of free will. I am familiar with and am comfortable with many of the explanations of how there can be free will with an omniscient God (ie. knowing that someone will do something doesn't take away their choice to do that thing). However none of these explanations (that I can find) address the issue that if you know what someone will do if you create them, and you could also create them differently knowing what they would do in that case as well, then how does this creation have any choice in what they do. They are just the result of you picking to create that particular instance.
I am really struggling to resolve this idea in my head, and have been praying that I will come to peace with it, but I just can't let go of it.
basically it is this. God knows every free will choice that you will ever make (all of us) and he actualizes the world where all of our free will choices end up aligning with his ultimate plan.
for example. Let's say you have a choice to eat cereal or pop tarts this morning. It's your choice. In one possible universe you choose cereal of your own free will. In another you choose pop tarts. in another you choose to skip breakfast. God actualizes the universe where you freely choose to skip breakfast, leave the house early and run into the mailman who needs some advice that you can provide. Everything happens just like God wants, but it is all due to your free will decisions. YOU chose to skip breakfast.Last edited by Sparko; 12-19-2017, 02:35 PM.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postresearch molinism.
basically it is this. God knows every free will choice that you will ever make (all of us) and he actualizes the world where all of our free will choices end up aligning with his ultimate plan.
As an actor as well, with sufficient power, even short of omnipotence, I'd think a god would be able to direct events to a desired outcome without foreknowledge of other actors' actions. I don't need to know the future behavior of every molecule in the pot to know if I keep adding heat, it's going to boil.
I don't see a theological necessity for this. I'm not aware of any necessity arising from exegesis of your sacred texts, either.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostSeriously, Jimmy, claiming that "if you can travel into the future then the future already exists" shows such a fundamental ignorance of the theoretical, scientific, and philosophical principles involved that I'm at a loss as to where to begin answering you simply because it would take more time and energy than I'm willing to invest.
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Originally posted by lao tzu View PostWhy is this necessary?
As an actor as well, with sufficient power, even short of omnipotence, I'd think a god would be able to direct events to a desired outcome without foreknowledge of other actors' actions. I don't need to know the future behavior of every molecule in the pot to know if I keep adding heat, it's going to boil.
I don't see a theological necessity for this. I'm not aware of any necessity arising from exegesis of your sacred texts, either.
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Originally posted by lao tzu View PostWhy is this necessary?
As an actor as well, with sufficient power, even short of omnipotence, I'd think a god would be able to direct events to a desired outcome without foreknowledge of other actors' actions. I don't need to know the future behavior of every molecule in the pot to know if I keep adding heat, it's going to boil.
I don't see a theological necessity for this. I'm not aware of any necessity arising from exegesis of your sacred texts, either.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postresearch molinism.
basically it is this. God knows every free will choice that you will ever make (all of us) and he actualizes the world where all of our free will choices end up aligning with his ultimate plan.Last edited by crepuscule; 12-20-2017, 01:35 PM.
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