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Does an Omniscient Creator Lead to Fatalism?

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  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    How many sources do you need?
    I don't care how many there are. I want to know why I should believe any of them.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
      I don't care how many there are. I want to know why I should believe any of them.
      Because the source is true. Problem, if a true source is rejected.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        Because the source is true. Problem, if a true source is rejected.
        ...or if a source is believed to be true when it is not.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Doug Shaver
          I want to know why I should believe any of them.

          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          Because the source is true.
          That is no help. Believing something and thinking it is true are the same thing. When I ask "Why should I believe that?" I am asking "Why should I think that is true?" And the only answer I have ever gotten from you to that question is "Because I say so."

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            ...or if a source is believed to be true when it is not.
            Which brings us to how we know what we know. And how we identify truth.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
              That is no help. Believing something and thinking it is true are the same thing. When I ask "Why should I believe that?" I am asking "Why should I think that is true?" And the only answer I have ever gotten from you to that question is "Because I say so."
              You have taken it that way. When in fact some metaphysical truths can be tested.

              In one gospel account Jesus makes such a testable claim (John 7:16-17). Who has disproven it? Jesus is cited that one can "know."

              Both John and Paul also claim one can know (1 John 5:9-13; Romans 8:16; 2 Corinthians 13:5).
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                In one gospel account Jesus makes such a testable claim (John 7:16-17).
                The test he refers to is doing the will of God, am I correct?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                  The test he refers to is doing the will of God, am I correct?
                  Being willing to do God's will, as I understand, "If any man will . . . ." But one needs to hear, that is, understand what it is. One cannot do or be willing to do what one does not understand or know about.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Doug Shaver
                    The test he refers to is doing the will of God, am I correct?

                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    Being willing to do God's will, as I understand, "If any man will . . . ." But one needs to hear, that is, understand what it is. One cannot do or be willing to do what one does not understand or know about.
                    Is that a yes or a no, or something else?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      Which brings us to how we know what we know. And how we identify truth.
                      Supporting evidence would be nice, as opposed to faith-based belief.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        Supporting evidence would be nice, as opposed to faith-based belief.
                        Faith in what? Tassman, you do not know anything which you do not believe. The written documents which comprise the Bible is an evidence. And there are historical elements which are in evidence.

                        You profess to believe there is no God without evidence. There is the universe. There is the that Bible. There are humans who know God.
                        Last edited by 37818; 05-26-2018, 10:47 AM.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                          Is that a yes or a no, or something else?
                          Yes and the willingness to do that will prior to doing it. [One cannot do what one does not know or understand to do.]
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Faith in what?
                            Your faith in God.

                            Tassman, you do not know anything which you do not believe.
                            One can believe they "know" that which, in fact, is untrue.

                            The written documents which comprise the Bible is an evidence. And there are historical elements which are in evidence
                            There is good evidence and there is not so good evidence.

                            You profess to believe there is no God without evidence. There is the universe. There is the that Bible. There are humans who know God.
                            There is no evidence of gods. There is no evidence that the universe was created by a god. There IS evidence that the bible was written by fallible men. Many gods have been known by humans throughout history. There is no good reason to think any of them exist.
                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              Your faith in God.
                              Faith in what is in evidence. The God whom I believe in is the fundamental self evident truth by which all self evident truths exist. God being the self evident uncaused existence - and there is none else.


                              Tassman, you do not know anything which you do not believe.
                              One can believe they "know" that which, in fact, is untrue.
                              You believe that you know this.


                              There is good evidence and there is not so good evidence.
                              Ok. What evidence do you have that refutes a not so good evidence that you refer to? And what good evidence do you have that there is no God?


                              There is no evidence of gods.
                              You are correct in that statement. The Hebrew Bible was written to refute those false gods. [Dennis Prager makes this claim BTW.]
                              There is no evidence that the universe was created by a god.
                              The universe is in evidence. So what evidence is there that the universe came of itself or of something, not God, prior to time?
                              There IS evidence that the bible was written by fallible men.
                              Fallible men were instruments in its writing is not in dispute. It presumes God, the self Existent one. Uncaused. All the pagan deities had some kind of origin. God of Hebrew Bible is presented and uniquely so. No other writing before it does this of any deity.

                              Many gods have been known by humans throughout history.
                              Made up and having some kind of origins.

                              There is no good reason to think any of them exist.
                              You are correct about those false gods.
                              Last edited by 37818; 05-27-2018, 11:55 AM.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                Faith in what is in evidence. The God whom I believe in is the fundamental self evident truth by which all self evident truths exist. God being the self evident uncaused existence - and there is none else.
                                So you believe. I don’t, which makes the rest of the discussion somewhat redundant.

                                You believe that you know this.


                                Ok. What evidence do you have that refutes a not so good evidence that you refer to? And what good evidence do you have that there is no God?


                                You are correct in that statement. The Hebrew Bible was written to refute those false gods. [Dennis Prager makes this claim BTW.]
                                The universe is in evidence. So what evidence is there that the universe came of itself or of something, not God, prior to time?
                                Fallible men were instruments in its writing is not in dispute. It presumes God, the self Existent one. Uncaused. All the pagan deities had some kind of origin. God of Hebrew Bible is presented and uniquely so. No other writing before it does this of any deity.

                                Made up and having some kind of origins.

                                You are correct about those false gods.
                                See above.
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                                Comment

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