Originally posted by crepuscule
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Does an Omniscient Creator Lead to Fatalism?
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Originally posted by crepuscule View PostI did, and have found nothing in them that counters what I said about Molinism.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI found counters - just not very compelling ones.
The alternative theologies are:
Arminianism - Man has free will but then there is no way to explain how God is sovereign.
Open Theism - Man has free will but God is not omniscient or sovereign because he doesn't know the future.
Calvinism - God is sovereign and man has no free will.
I just find Molinism provides a good compromise that let's both be true.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThere is nothing in Molinism that says, "this is the way it is, you have to believe it!" - it is just a workable theory to explain how God can be sovereign and we can have free will. You don't have to find it compelling.
The alternative theologies are:
Arminianism - Man has free will but then there is no way to explain how God is sovereign.
Open Theism - Man has free will but God is not omniscient or sovereign because he doesn't know the future.
Calvinism - God is sovereign and man has no free will.
I just find Molinism provides a good compromise that let's both be true.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostArminianism - Man has free will but then there is no way to explain how God is sovereign.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThere is nothing in Molinism that says, "this is the way it is, you have to believe it!" - it is just a workable theory to explain how God can be sovereign and we can have free will. You don't have to find it compelling.
The alternative theologies are:
Arminianism - Man has free will but then there is no way to explain how God is sovereign.
Open Theism - Man has free will but God is not omniscient or sovereign because he doesn't know the future.
Calvinism - God is sovereign and man has no free will.
I just find Molinism provides a good compromise that let's both be true.
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostGarbage in, garbage out.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by mythas View PostYou are completely missing the point sparko. It's not just knowing it is creating. If I am the creator of your universe and I am able to decide every minute starting detail of your week and also know the consequences of what each subtle change in your week will be, and then I pick the set of starting conditions that makes you get your oil changed, then I would argue no you have no free will in getting your oil changed. It is merely the result of the starting conditions I picked.
If an all-knowing God creates a universe where I decide to go and get the oil in my car changed, as opposed to one where I don't go and get my oil change (or even buy a car in the first place), how does that violate my free-will in any way? You'll have to expound on the argument further, because the premises themselves do not lead to that conclusion. As far as I am aware there's nothing about creating a reality where someone makes a certain choice that violates free-will any more than simply foreknowing what that persons choice will be.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostI don't see it.
If an all-knowing God creates a universe where I decide to go and get the oil in my car changed, as opposed to one where I don't go and get my oil change (or even buy a car in the first place), how does that violate my free-will in any way? You'll have to expound on the argument further, because the premises themselves do not lead to that conclusion. As far as I am aware there's nothing about creating a reality where someone makes a certain choice that violates free-will any more than simply foreknowing what that persons choice will be.
You can clearly see this if you ask if the actor is free to choose otherwise. The answer is "no," because that would not be the universe the creator selected to create.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostIt renders "free-will" illusionary. It also renders the entire universe deterministic. When there are an infinite number of possibilities, each of which is a "different" universe, and one specific universe that realizes one specific set of possibilities is created, all other possibilities are eliminated. The players in the "play" have the impression that they are freely choosing, but they are simply enacting the choice that was made by the creator who chose that specific universe to create. In other words - the creator is choosing the outcomes, not the actors in the play.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYou can clearly see this if you ask if the actor is free to choose otherwise. The answer is "no," because that would not be the universe the creator selected to create.
You're not really expounding on the argument in the OP at all, you're simply expressing it in different words. I'm assuming there's some hidden premise in the argument that you and mythas are making that would make it a valid argument, but as it is the premises (God is all-knowing and God decided to create a universe with specific outcomes) does not lead to the conclusion that free-will is illusory.Last edited by JonathanL; 01-21-2018, 11:10 AM.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostIt renders "free-will" illusionary. It also renders the entire universe deterministic. When there are an infinite number of possibilities, each of which is a "different" universe, and one specific universe that realizes one specific set of possibilities is created, all other possibilities are eliminated. The players in the "play" have the impression that they are freely choosing, but they are simply enacting the choice that was made by the creator who chose that specific universe to create. In other words - the creator is choosing the outcomes, not the actors in the play.
You can clearly see this if you ask if the actor is free to choose otherwise. The answer is "no," because that would not be the universe the creator selected to create.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI think that this very easy to understand point has been made over and over again and they, christians that is, just can't seem to grasp it. I think it's a psychological thing.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostGod decided to create the reality where the actor freely chose to act in a certain way.
I'm generally okay with whatever folks want to believe about the creator of the universe until they insist their gods are immune from contradiction. Personally, I think you get more mileage out of a god that can actually exist.
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