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Does an Omniscient Creator Lead to Fatalism?

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  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    Will, for one thing, I am not a pantheist.
    I didn't thinik so.

    And you did not explain where existence is not.
    Why would I? I don't think there is any such thing as nothing.

    Things which exist are neither the same thing nor are they being the existence in being in the existence.
    Huh?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      My say so does not make anything authoritative to be authoritative. God has a real identity. And there are two reasons former professing Christians are wrong. One, they never Knew God. Had one actually knew God, one could no more deny it than having understood 1 + 1 = 2.
      You think you "know God", I think you're delusional.

      Secondly, they never had a correct understanding of the gospel of grace.
      And you have a "correct understanding of the gospel of grace". How do you know?
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        You think you "know God", I think you're delusional.
        Well, I am still waiting for that former Christian who explains how he/she overcame that delusion. If I was now an atheist, I would ask theists, Is God self evident? If, per chance, the answer is yes, I would ask him/her to explain how? If the answer is no. Then I would ask why is God necessary, being self evident truths do not need God? And then Iwould argue, self evident truths being evidence that God is not needed.


        And you have a "correct understanding of the gospel of grace". How do you know?
        Because by it, I know God and know I have eternal life. [Eternal life is not to be confused with physical immortality, which is yet future.] Jesus said, ". . . My doctrine is not Mine, but His that sent Me. If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, . . ." I dare you to test it. Of course you cannot do what you do not understand. But then you are not willing to believe, are you?
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JimL View Post

          Why would I? I don't think there is any such thing as nothing.
          And that is why that there was always the uncaused Existence - whom the Jews worshiped, Exodus 3:14-15.

          Things which exist are neither the same thing nor are they being the existence in being in the existence.
          Huh?
          The Apostle Paul stated it this way, "In Him we live and move and have our being." Existence and the things which exist in existence are not the same things.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
            But it's all you have. I have never seen you present any other reason to believe anything you have said in this forum.
            We have self evident Existence. Whom I have identified to be God.

            You say so.
            Where did you say you thought you had known God?

            You say so.
            Where did you explain the gospel of grace that you had thought was true?
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              Well, I am still waiting for that former Christian who explains how he/she overcame that delusion.
              I’ve never been Christian, having been fortunate enough to be raised by parents for whom religion was irrelevant...like most Australians.

              If I was now an atheist, I would ask theists, Is God self evident? If, per chance, the answer is yes, I would ask him/her to explain how? If the answer is no. Then I would ask why is God necessary, being self evident truths do not need God? And then Iwould argue, self evident truths being evidence that God is not needed.
              I’m not sufficiently interested in people’s delusions to be bothered asking. I come from a culture where such things count for little...and currently live and work in a Buddhist society where Christianity is non-existent.

              Because by it, I know God and know I have eternal life. [Eternal life is not to be confused with physical immortality, which is yet future.] Jesus said, ". . . My doctrine is not Mine, but His that sent Me. If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, . . ." I dare you to test it. Of course you cannot do what you do not understand. ?
              Oh dear! Just listen to yourself.

              But then you are not willing to believe, are you
              I'm about as willing as you are to believe in Islam, Hinduism, or The Flying Spaghetti Monster, i.e. not at all.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                I’ve never been Christian, having been fortunate enough to be raised by parents for whom religion was irrelevant...like most Australians.
                OK. But there are more variant claims purporting to be Christian than all the other belief claims combined. That being said, only Christianity has the claim of a yet living founder. Now, if that is true, what do you think you know that refutes it? Can you provide that definitive argument that there cannot be a God?


                I’m not sufficiently interested in people’s delusions to be bothered asking. I come from a culture where such things count for little...and currently live and work in a Buddhist society where Christianity is non-existent.
                Hmm . . . . You, for what ever reason, do in fact show some kind of interest in Christianity. Why?

                Because by it, I know God and know I have eternal life. [Eternal life is not to be confused with physical immortality, which is yet future.] Jesus said, ". . . My doctrine is not Mine, but His that sent Me. If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, . . ." I dare you to test it. Of course you cannot do what you do not understand. ?
                Oh dear! Just listen to yourself.
                Yes, do you understand the gospel of grace?


                I'm about as willing as you are to believe in Islam, Hinduism, or The Flying Spaghetti Monster, i.e. not at all.
                None of those beliefs are being promoted by you. And no one seriously believes in the mock "Flying Spaghetti Monster." Your atheism seems to be based on ignorance. As most atheism is.
                Last edited by 37818; 04-23-2018, 08:24 AM.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  And that is why that there was always the uncaused Existence - whom the Jews worshiped, Exodus 3:14-15.
                  Which doesn't mean a deity, it simply means that existence rather than non-existence, is the natural state of affairs
                  The Apostle Paul stated it this way, "In Him we live and move and have our being." Existence and the things which exist in existence are not the same things.
                  Again, existence is not itself a thing. no thing exists within existence, because existence is not itself a thing in which other things exist within. If what you mean by existence is the underlying substance out of which existing things are formed, then yes, they are the same thing, or at least they are one and the same substance.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    Which doesn't mean a deity, it simply means that existence rather than non-existence, is the natural state of affairs
                    To argue that God is not God does not change the fact of God`s identity.

                    Again, existence is not itself a thing. no thing exists within existence, because existence is not itself a thing in which other things exist within. If what you mean by existence is the underlying substance out of which existing things are formed, then yes, they are the same thing, or at least they are one and the same substance.
                    Everything that exists exists in Existence. You denying that does not make your view true. So
                    is we disagree. Existence, uncaused is a thing - the entity, the person known as God.
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      To argue that God is not God does not change the fact of God`s identity.
                      To simply assert god, doesn't make it god, other than in the imagination of your own mind
                      Everything that exists exists in Existence. You denying that does not make your view true. So
                      is we disagree. Existence, uncaused is a thing - the entity, the person known as God.
                      Again, this is a simple, and meaningless, assertion.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        To simply assert god, doesn't make it god, other than in the imagination of your own mind.
                        I am not the origin of your alleged assertion. God Himself revealed Himself as such. Exodus 3:14-15 is a case in point.
                        Again, this is a simple, and meaningless, assertion.
                        You are the one who made the meaningless assertion that existence is no thing - i.e. nothing!

                        The Christian Apostle Paul also stated, "In Him [God] we live and move and have our being." So what I am explaining is 1000s of years old. It is not my fault that this truth about who God is, is not well understood.

                        Not only that, you do not know to understand the Christian gospel of grace either. Like I pointed out, Jesus said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His that sent Me. If any man will do His will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of Myself."
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          I am not the origin of your alleged assertion. God Himself revealed Himself as such. Exodus 3:14-15 is a case in point.
                          You are the one who made the meaningless assertion that existence is no thing - i.e. nothing!
                          No the assertion didn't come to you from god, the assertion came to you from the author of Exodus. That you believe the author of Exidus is your own business, but that you simply believe something means nothing to those you're trying to convince.
                          The Christian Apostle Paul also stated, "In Him [God] we live and move and have our being." So what I am explaining is 1000s of years old. It is not my fault that this truth about who God is, is not well understood.
                          Again, it's not a matter of understanding the writings of biblical authors, it's a matter of believing them. Simply quoting unsubstantiated biblical assertions isn't an argument.
                          Not only that, you do not know to understand the Christian gospel of grace either. Like I pointed out, Jesus said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His that sent Me. If any man will do His will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of Myself."
                          See above.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            I see. So you believe scripture to be authoritative because you're a Christian. And you're a Christian because you believe scripture to be authoritative. Your reasoning is a tad circular.
                            This statement certainly describes (at the very least) more than a few Christians...but, I'm not sure if it's the major view or not. It certainly is not so in my case...and many people I personally know. In my case, I went from agnosticism to Christian by first believing in Christ after being told it would work for me and help me in my life. So, I believed in Christ First, then sought more about Him and the Godhead and finding the Bible. An adequate analogy would be someone who needing to remove a stubborn stump is told to mix sulphur, charcoal and potassium nitrate and pack it into a tube with a fuse and lilght it and it will help blow out the stump. Upon trying it and finding it successful, they then research and find a book on the history and making of black powder.


                            That's the way many people, esp. later converts such as myself would see it. And the testimonies of us Christians who find it authoritative in this manner leads those in the first camp to affirm, at least to themselves, they are correct in their assumption.
                            "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                            "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                              This statement certainly describes (at the very least) more than a few Christians...but, I'm not sure if it's the major view or not. It certainly is not so in my case...and many people I personally know. In my case, I went from agnosticism to Christian by first believing in Christ after being told it would work for me and help me in my life. So, I believed in Christ First, then sought more about Him and the Godhead and finding the Bible. An adequate analogy would be someone who needing to remove a stubborn stump is told to mix sulphur, charcoal and potassium nitrate and pack it into a tube with a fuse and lilght it and it will help blow out the stump. Upon trying it and finding it successful, they then research and find a book on the history and making of black powder.


                              That's the way many people, esp. later converts such as myself would see it. And the testimonies of us Christians who find it authoritative in this manner leads those in the first camp to affirm, at least to themselves, they are correct in their assumption.
                              That's fine Littlejoe, but it's a bad analogy. Believing in Christ and acting accordingly may help, and may have helped you in life, but the fact that it helps you doesn't make the belief itself real. Believing in God regardless of which religion, or which god, I'm sure is a help to many of those who believe and practice accordingly as well, but it doesn't make their belief true either.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                You are the one who made the meaningless assertion that existence is no thing - i.e. nothing!
                                You are not privileged. If whatever you say is true just because you say it, then whatever I say is true just because I say it.

                                Comment

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