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Does an Omniscient Creator Lead to Fatalism?

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  • Originally posted by crepuscule View Post
    I did, and have found nothing in them that counters what I said about Molinism.
    I guess I shouldn't have expected you to understand them, because that is what the articles were all about.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by crepuscule View Post
      I did, and have found nothing in them that counters what I said about Molinism.
      I found counters - just not very compelling ones.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        I found counters - just not very compelling ones.
        There is nothing in Molinism that says, "this is the way it is, you have to believe it!" - it is just a workable theory to explain how God can be sovereign and we can have free will. You don't have to find it compelling.

        The alternative theologies are:

        Arminianism - Man has free will but then there is no way to explain how God is sovereign.
        Open Theism - Man has free will but God is not omniscient or sovereign because he doesn't know the future.
        Calvinism - God is sovereign and man has no free will.

        I just find Molinism provides a good compromise that let's both be true.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          There is nothing in Molinism that says, "this is the way it is, you have to believe it!" - it is just a workable theory to explain how God can be sovereign and we can have free will. You don't have to find it compelling.

          The alternative theologies are:

          Arminianism - Man has free will but then there is no way to explain how God is sovereign.
          Open Theism - Man has free will but God is not omniscient or sovereign because he doesn't know the future.
          Calvinism - God is sovereign and man has no free will.

          I just find Molinism provides a good compromise that let's both be true.
          Of the options - the one that does not have inherent contradictions to me is open theism. It maintains sovereignty and omniscience, but merely notes that god can know all that is knowable - and the future is not knowable. God would definitely be the best predictor of the future that could possibly be, armed with infinite knowledge of the present, all natural laws and systems, and infinite knowledge of the past. If I were still Christian - that would probably be part of my belief system.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Arminianism - Man has free will but then there is no way to explain how God is sovereign.
            I don't see how, if God by his sovereign will, created man with free will, that that would undermine His sovereignty - seeing that He could override or mitigate our choices at will. A king could be sovereign over his realm with out exercising that power at every instance. That non-exercising of his power does not diminish sovereignty, or power.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              There is nothing in Molinism that says, "this is the way it is, you have to believe it!" - it is just a workable theory to explain how God can be sovereign and we can have free will. You don't have to find it compelling.

              The alternative theologies are:

              Arminianism - Man has free will but then there is no way to explain how God is sovereign.
              Open Theism - Man has free will but God is not omniscient or sovereign because he doesn't know the future.
              Calvinism - God is sovereign and man has no free will.

              I just find Molinism provides a good compromise that let's both be true.
              Also, there are Molinists who lean more one direction or the other, so there are Arminian Molinists (which I'm pretty certain William Lane Craig is), and Calvinist Molinists (pretty certain that describes Alvin Plantinga).

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                I guess I shouldn't have expected you to understand them, because that is what the articles were all about.
                No they're not. Craig attacks positions I have not taken (in this thread), and I find nothing of what I said in the articles.

                Comment


                • Garbage in, garbage out.
                  “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                  “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                  “not all there” - you know who you are

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                    Garbage in, garbage out.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by mythas View Post
                      You are completely missing the point sparko. It's not just knowing it is creating. If I am the creator of your universe and I am able to decide every minute starting detail of your week and also know the consequences of what each subtle change in your week will be, and then I pick the set of starting conditions that makes you get your oil changed, then I would argue no you have no free will in getting your oil changed. It is merely the result of the starting conditions I picked.
                      I don't see it.

                      If an all-knowing God creates a universe where I decide to go and get the oil in my car changed, as opposed to one where I don't go and get my oil change (or even buy a car in the first place), how does that violate my free-will in any way? You'll have to expound on the argument further, because the premises themselves do not lead to that conclusion. As far as I am aware there's nothing about creating a reality where someone makes a certain choice that violates free-will any more than simply foreknowing what that persons choice will be.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                        I don't see it.

                        If an all-knowing God creates a universe where I decide to go and get the oil in my car changed, as opposed to one where I don't go and get my oil change (or even buy a car in the first place), how does that violate my free-will in any way? You'll have to expound on the argument further, because the premises themselves do not lead to that conclusion. As far as I am aware there's nothing about creating a reality where someone makes a certain choice that violates free-will any more than simply foreknowing what that persons choice will be.
                        It renders "free-will" illusionary. It also renders the entire universe deterministic. When there are an infinite number of possibilities, each of which is a "different" universe, and one specific universe that realizes one specific set of possibilities is created, all other possibilities are eliminated. The players in the "play" have the impression that they are freely choosing, but they are simply enacting the choice that was made by the creator who chose that specific universe to create. In other words - the creator is choosing the outcomes, not the actors in the play.

                        You can clearly see this if you ask if the actor is free to choose otherwise. The answer is "no," because that would not be the universe the creator selected to create.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          It renders "free-will" illusionary. It also renders the entire universe deterministic. When there are an infinite number of possibilities, each of which is a "different" universe, and one specific universe that realizes one specific set of possibilities is created, all other possibilities are eliminated. The players in the "play" have the impression that they are freely choosing, but they are simply enacting the choice that was made by the creator who chose that specific universe to create. In other words - the creator is choosing the outcomes, not the actors in the play.
                          Or they're both making a choice. God decided to create the reality where the actor freely chose to act in a certain way.

                          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          You can clearly see this if you ask if the actor is free to choose otherwise. The answer is "no," because that would not be the universe the creator selected to create.
                          But God didn't create a universe where the actor wasn't free to choose otherwise, He created a universe where the actor was free to choose otherwise, but decided not to.


                          You're not really expounding on the argument in the OP at all, you're simply expressing it in different words. I'm assuming there's some hidden premise in the argument that you and mythas are making that would make it a valid argument, but as it is the premises (God is all-knowing and God decided to create a universe with specific outcomes) does not lead to the conclusion that free-will is illusory.
                          Last edited by JonathanL; 01-21-2018, 11:10 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            It renders "free-will" illusionary. It also renders the entire universe deterministic. When there are an infinite number of possibilities, each of which is a "different" universe, and one specific universe that realizes one specific set of possibilities is created, all other possibilities are eliminated. The players in the "play" have the impression that they are freely choosing, but they are simply enacting the choice that was made by the creator who chose that specific universe to create. In other words - the creator is choosing the outcomes, not the actors in the play.

                            You can clearly see this if you ask if the actor is free to choose otherwise. The answer is "no," because that would not be the universe the creator selected to create.
                            I think that this very easy to understand point has been made over and over again and they, christians that is, just can't seem to grasp it. I think it's a psychological thing.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              I think that this very easy to understand point has been made over and over again and they, christians that is, just can't seem to grasp it. I think it's a psychological thing.
                              No, it's a "the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, or at the very least no one has shown it to be so" thing.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                                God decided to create the reality where the actor freely chose to act in a certain way.
                                God decided, and they freely chose.

                                I'm generally okay with whatever folks want to believe about the creator of the universe until they insist their gods are immune from contradiction. Personally, I think you get more mileage out of a god that can actually exist.

                                Comment

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