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Does an Omniscient Creator Lead to Fatalism?

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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    That god is infinite and eternal is not an issue that effects my argument, so not sure why you mention it.
    God is omniscient because He is infinite and eternal. A finite and temporal entity cannot be omniscient without access to the infinite and eternal.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
      This is a question of causality, not blame. The unintended consequences of a creator are still its creations. I created a mess this morning. It wasn't the plan, but it was certainly my mess. I caused it.

      Intent is material if we're interested in judging the creation, and by implication, the creator, but I don't think we were going there. The question of whether a god I don't believe in created humans destined for a hell that I'm quite sure doesn't exist is purely academic for me. This is primarily a discussion of whether we can claim free will for the creations of an omniscient deity.
      Well, smarter men than I rather disagree.

      Philosopher David Bentley Hart has this to say about the word commonly translated "predestined":

      Source: The New Testament: A Translation, p. 552-3[/cite


      The... verb προορίζωειν, which has been traditionally - as a result of the Vulgate Latin translation - been rendered as "to predestine." This is simply incorrect (though some inferior lexica over the years, taking their lead from traditional theological usage in the West, have incorporated it in their definitions of the verb). The word ὁρίζωειν (whence our word "horizon") means "to demarcate," "delineate," "to mark out as a boundary," "to distinguish," "to sort," "to define," "to assign," "to plan out," "to make determinate," or "to appoint"; and προ-ὁρίζωειν is simply to do this in advance. It certainly possesses none of the grim, ghastly magnificence of the late Augustinian concept of "predestination": an entirely irresistible predetermining causal force, not based on divine foreknowledge but rather logically prior to everything it ordains, by which God infallibly destines only a very few to salvation and thereby infallibly consigns the vast majority of humanity to unending torment. Thus, in two of the six instances of the verb's use in the New Testament (Romans 8:29-30), Paul - blissfully innocent of later theological developments and anxieties - explicitly treats this divine "pre-demarcation" as consequent upon divine foreknowledge, and does so without any qualification or noticeable pangs of theological conscience. (1 Peter 1:1-2, more concisely, says the same thing.) Of the very few instances of the verb or its cognate noun προορισμός in Greek literature before the New Testament (I am aware of only two), it carries no connotation of predestination. More tellingly, none of the Greek-speaking Church Fathers ever read the word as having such a connotation, or even seemed to suspect that such a reading was a possibility. The Augustinian understanding of "predestination," for all its epochal significance for later Western Christian thought, is a late fourth-century theological innovation, the inadvertent invention of a Paul who never existed, a theological accident prompted by a defective Latin translation and the temperamental idiosyncrasies of a single sullen genius (with at times a singularly dismal understanding of the "good news"). No matter what one's theology, the traditional rendering is simply insupportable. I have therefore translated the verb, with bland literality, as "to mark out in advance."

      © Copyright Original Source



      He also casts some serious shade on the notion of eternal conscious torment, noting that αἰώνιος never has "eternal" as its root meaning, but can connote that when predicated of, i.e., God; the text will rather more easily bear the possibility of an indefinite period of torment which will either end in annihilation or a purifying of the tormented one resulting in that one being made acceptable to God. Ibid., 537-43.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        God is omniscient because He is infinite and eternal. A finite and temporal entity cannot be omniscient without access to the infinite and eternal.
        Okay, did someone ask?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          God is omniscient because He is infinite and eternal. A finite and temporal entity cannot be omniscient without access to the infinite and eternal.
          God being "omniscient" is an unsubstantiated claim. And you support this "unsubstantiated claim" by the bald assertion that therefore God needs to be "infinite and eternal", but NONE of these claims is supported. They are faith-based beliefs, nothing more.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by mythas View Post
            I'll start with two assumptions that I think most Christians can agree with.

            1. God is Omniscient.He is all knowing of all things through all time. He is able to see ever chain of cause and effect through to its end.
            2. God created the universe. My point doesn't depend on the mechanism of creation simply that God initiated it.

            I am really struggling to resolve this idea in my head, and have been praying that I will come to peace with it, but I just can't let go of it.
            I suppose it would depend on God's amount of interference in its creation.

            If god made the Universe, shake and baked it, zipped it up and put it in the fridge, then ignored it, we would likely be pretty Free, bound by the perimeters of Existence.

            If God interfered, it would heavily imply it wanted a certain outcome because in being omniscient, it would know the outcome before interfering.

            Unless an omniscient entity is capable of surprising itself. If an omniscient entity could 'turn off' its omniscience(which why would it, unless its a burden-which would raise questions about its omnipotence) then that implies a triviality to our creation.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              God being "omniscient" is an unsubstantiated claim. And you support this "unsubstantiated claim" by the bald assertion that therefore God needs to be "infinite and eternal", but NONE of these claims is supported. They are faith-based beliefs, nothing more.
              Ah, if there is no God (the uncaused existence not being the God), then what ever omniscience there might be, it is limited to omnipresence of all existence, and not any kind of conscious entity as we think a god would be.
              Last edited by 37818; 02-15-2018, 08:26 AM.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • Originally posted by mythas View Post
                I'll start with two assumptions that I think most Christians can agree with.

                1. God is Omniscient.He is all knowing of all things through all time. He is able to see ever chain of cause and effect through to its end.
                2. God created the universe. My point doesn't depend on the mechanism of creation simply that God initiated it.

                If these two assumptions hold then prior to God creating the universe he was able to know what would happen if he were to create that universe. He has able to see every global event, and every personal event that would occur if he were to go through with creating that particular universe. He would also have been able to consider other universes that he could have created. Ones with different fundamental laws of physics, ones where DNA strands operate differently, ones where the nature of peoples hearts are different, even ones where everything is identical to the current universe except that instead of having coffee this morning you had tea. An omniscient and omnipotent God had all of these options before him and yet he chose to create the universe we live in. Seeing as how he knew exactly what would happen if he were to create the world, and he had other options for worlds he could create wouldn't that make life one big simulation.

                Doesn't this break the idea of free will. I am familiar with and am comfortable with many of the explanations of how there can be free will with an omniscient God (ie. knowing that someone will do something doesn't take away their choice to do that thing). However none of these explanations (that I can find) address the issue that if you know what someone will do if you create them, and you could also create them differently knowing what they would do in that case as well, then how does this creation have any choice in what they do. They are just the result of you picking to create that particular instance.

                I am really struggling to resolve this idea in my head, and have been praying that I will come to peace with it, but I just can't let go of it.
                I believe that God is Omnipotent, and has entire control of the tiniest details of creation, Planck Lengths very much included. Why accepting that belief in Divine Providence, or a belief in predestination, should lead to fatalism, is not clear.

                On the contrary, ISTM that the absolute control of all created things by God is the surest possible foundation they could have for their being and their freedom. The “service [of God] is perfect freedom” - it is not slavery or non-existence. God is the Creator of all things - not the obliterator of them. The grace of God elevates and ennobles and enlivens and perfects creatures; it does not lower, ennervate, weaken or wreck them.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  Ah, if there is no God (the uncaused existence not being the God), then what ever omniscience there might be, it is limited to omnipresence of all existence, and not any kind of conscious entity as we think a god would be.
                  Knowledge is a product of intelligence. Any knowledge there is, whether of everything or of some things, is whatever is had by intelligent beings. No finite being can have all knowledge, and so if there is no God, then nothing is omniscient.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                    Knowledge is a product of intelligence. Any knowledge there is, whether of everything or of some things, is whatever is had by intelligent beings. No finite being can have all knowledge, and so if there is no God, then nothing is omniscient.
                    What ever is omnipresent possess all things, all information, all knowledge as such.
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      What ever is omnipresent possess all things, all information, all knowledge as such.
                      No thing is omnipresent.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        No thing is omnipresent.
                        So existence does not exist.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          So existence does not exist.
                          Existence is not a thing.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            Existence is not a thing.
                            Based on what? Existence is everywhere there is anything.
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              Based on what? Existence is everywhere there is anything.
                              Defining our own terms are we?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                What ever is omnipresent possess all things, all information, all knowledge as such.
                                According to whom? Presence has nothing to do with either possession or knowledge, and your saying otherwise can't change that.

                                Comment

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