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Does an Omniscient Creator Lead to Fatalism?

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  • #16
    You're arguing about things you really don't understand.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      You're arguing about things you really don't understand.
      Hmmm, great come back MM. Run along now, lets see if anyone else actually has a logical answer to this.

      Comment


      • #18
        Seriously, Jimmy, claiming that "if you can travel into the future then the future already exists" shows such a fundamental ignorance of the theoretical, scientific, and philosophical principles involved that I'm at a loss as to where to begin answering you simply because it would take more time and energy than I'm willing to invest.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by mythas View Post
          I am really struggling to resolve this idea in my head, and have been praying that I will come to peace with it, but I just can't let go of it.
          I don't believe in any gods, which makes it easier to answer this question.

          The simplest solution is to allow "free will."

          In this context, that means curtailing omniscience to allow a god's creations to make surprising choices.

          Omniscience and omnipotence — and occasionally omnibenevolence — are often created as attributes for gods without considering their consequences. I'm fairly sure actual gods, if they existed, would not be constrained by the need to accommodate the paradoxical requirements of modern day theological philosophers.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by mythas View Post
            I'll start with two assumptions that I think most Christians can agree with.

            1. God is Omniscient.He is all knowing of all things through all time. He is able to see ever chain of cause and effect through to its end.
            2. God created the universe. My point doesn't depend on the mechanism of creation simply that God initiated it.

            If these two assumptions hold then prior to God creating the universe he was able to know what would happen if he were to create that universe. He has able to see every global event, and every personal event that would occur if he were to go through with creating that particular universe. He would also have been able to consider other universes that he could have created. Ones with different fundamental laws of physics, ones where DNA strands operate differently, ones where the nature of peoples hearts are different, even ones where everything is identical to the current universe except that instead of having coffee this morning you had tea. An omniscient and omnipotent God had all of these options before him and yet he chose to create the universe we live in. Seeing as how he knew exactly what would happen if he were to create the world, and he had other options for worlds he could create wouldn't that make life one big simulation.

            Doesn't this break the idea of free will. I am familiar with and am comfortable with many of the explanations of how there can be free will with an omniscient God (ie. knowing that someone will do something doesn't take away their choice to do that thing). However none of these explanations (that I can find) address the issue that if you know what someone will do if you create them, and you could also create them differently knowing what they would do in that case as well, then how does this creation have any choice in what they do. They are just the result of you picking to create that particular instance.

            I am really struggling to resolve this idea in my head, and have been praying that I will come to peace with it, but I just can't let go of it.
            research molinism.

            basically it is this. God knows every free will choice that you will ever make (all of us) and he actualizes the world where all of our free will choices end up aligning with his ultimate plan.

            for example. Let's say you have a choice to eat cereal or pop tarts this morning. It's your choice. In one possible universe you choose cereal of your own free will. In another you choose pop tarts. in another you choose to skip breakfast. God actualizes the universe where you freely choose to skip breakfast, leave the house early and run into the mailman who needs some advice that you can provide. Everything happens just like God wants, but it is all due to your free will decisions. YOU chose to skip breakfast.
            Last edited by Sparko; 12-19-2017, 02:35 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              research molinism.

              basically it is this. God knows every free will choice that you will ever make (all of us) and he actualizes the world where all of our free will choices end up aligning with his ultimate plan.
              Why is this necessary?

              As an actor as well, with sufficient power, even short of omnipotence, I'd think a god would be able to direct events to a desired outcome without foreknowledge of other actors' actions. I don't need to know the future behavior of every molecule in the pot to know if I keep adding heat, it's going to boil.

              I don't see a theological necessity for this. I'm not aware of any necessity arising from exegesis of your sacred texts, either.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                That's not a conceivable universe.
                For me, having coffee or tea is inconceivable.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  Seriously, Jimmy, claiming that "if you can travel into the future then the future already exists" shows such a fundamental ignorance of the theoretical, scientific, and philosophical principles involved that I'm at a loss as to where to begin answering you simply because it would take more time and energy than I'm willing to invest.
                  Oh please MM, we've had this argument before so I already know what it is that you know about this. Nothing! You can't travel to the future unless it exist any more than you could travel to the past unless it exists. You could argue that it does exist, you know, the block universe, where past, present, and future all exist, but then you can't argue that free will exists in such a world.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                    Why is this necessary?

                    As an actor as well, with sufficient power, even short of omnipotence, I'd think a god would be able to direct events to a desired outcome without foreknowledge of other actors' actions. I don't need to know the future behavior of every molecule in the pot to know if I keep adding heat, it's going to boil.

                    I don't see a theological necessity for this. I'm not aware of any necessity arising from exegesis of your sacred texts, either.
                    it is a way to reconcile absolute sovereignty with free will. Calvinists claim that God does control everything to a fatalistic extent. Arminian give man so much free will that God has hardly any control at all and is at the mercy of free will. Molinism is a way to have a completely sovereign God and still have free will. The two just happen to coincide so there is no conflict. You freely choose to do exactly what God wants, in other words.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                      Why is this necessary?

                      As an actor as well, with sufficient power, even short of omnipotence, I'd think a god would be able to direct events to a desired outcome without foreknowledge of other actors' actions. I don't need to know the future behavior of every molecule in the pot to know if I keep adding heat, it's going to boil.

                      I don't see a theological necessity for this. I'm not aware of any necessity arising from exegesis of your sacred texts, either.
                      Water molecules aren't free agents.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        Water molecules aren't free agents.
                        I'm not so sure about that.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                          I'm not so sure about that.
                          damn. So the universe really IS out to get me!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            damn. So the universe really IS out to get me!
                            A Canticle for Leibowitz
                            "You've called them three times. They've made three promises. We've waited three days. I need a stenographer. Now! Preferably a Christian. That thing– " he waved irritably toward the Abominable Autoscribe– "is a damned infidel or worse. Get rid of it. I want it out of here."

                            "The APLAC?"

                            "The APLAC. Sell it to an atheist. No, that wouldn't be kind. Sell it as junk. I'm through with it. Why, for Heaven's sake, did Abbot Boumous– may his soul be blessed– ever buy the silly contraption?"

                            "Well, Domne, they say your predecessor was fond of gadgets, and it is convenient to be able to write letters in languages you yourself can't speak."

                            "It is? You mean it would be. That contraption– listen, Brother, they claim it thinks. I didn't believe it at first. Thought, implying rational principle, implying soul. Can the principle of a 'thinking machine'– man-made– be a rational soul? Bah! It seemed a thoroughly pagan notion at first. But do you know what?"

                            "Father?"

                            "Nothing could be that perverse without premeditation! It must think! It knows good and evil, I tell you, and it chose the latter."

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              research molinism.

                              basically it is this. God knows every free will choice that you will ever make (all of us) and he actualizes the world where all of our free will choices end up aligning with his ultimate plan.
                              I don’t understand this. According to you, for what reason would God actualize the world so that I freely choose to be an atheist? Because that latter bit is what has happened. Is me choosing to be an atheist part of His ultimate plan?
                              Last edited by crepuscule; 12-20-2017, 01:35 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by crepuscule View Post
                                I don’t understand this. According to you, for what reason would God actualize the world so that I freely choose to be an atheist? Because that latter bit is what has happened. Is me choosing to be an atheist part of His ultimate plan?
                                maybe. I was one until I turned 40. Or maybe he can't actualize a world where everyone is saved and you are just one of those who ends up on the outside. Or you being an atheist will somehow convince 10 other people to become Christians.

                                The bible actually discusses that very thing:

                                Romans 9:20-22New International Version (NIV)

                                20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

                                If you don't want to be an atheist and/or "prepared for destruction" then don't. You have free will. Use it. Maybe this very thread is meant by God to kick you in the pants and get you to be saved and THAT is the world he is going to actualize through your free will.

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