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Thread: Does an Omniscient Creator Lead to Fatalism?

  1. #21
    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    research molinism.

    basically it is this. God knows every free will choice that you will ever make (all of us) and he actualizes the world where all of our free will choices end up aligning with his ultimate plan.
    Why is this necessary?

    As an actor as well, with sufficient power, even short of omnipotence, I'd think a god would be able to direct events to a desired outcome without foreknowledge of other actors' actions. I don't need to know the future behavior of every molecule in the pot to know if I keep adding heat, it's going to boil.

    I don't see a theological necessity for this. I'm not aware of any necessity arising from exegesis of your sacred texts, either.

  2. #22
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lao tzu View Post
    That's not a conceivable universe.
    For me, having coffee or tea is inconceivable.

  3. #23
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Seriously, Jimmy, claiming that "if you can travel into the future then the future already exists" shows such a fundamental ignorance of the theoretical, scientific, and philosophical principles involved that I'm at a loss as to where to begin answering you simply because it would take more time and energy than I'm willing to invest.
    Oh please MM, we've had this argument before so I already know what it is that you know about this. Nothing! You can't travel to the future unless it exist any more than you could travel to the past unless it exists. You could argue that it does exist, you know, the block universe, where past, present, and future all exist, but then you can't argue that free will exists in such a world.

  4. #24
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lao tzu View Post
    Why is this necessary?

    As an actor as well, with sufficient power, even short of omnipotence, I'd think a god would be able to direct events to a desired outcome without foreknowledge of other actors' actions. I don't need to know the future behavior of every molecule in the pot to know if I keep adding heat, it's going to boil.

    I don't see a theological necessity for this. I'm not aware of any necessity arising from exegesis of your sacred texts, either.
    it is a way to reconcile absolute sovereignty with free will. Calvinists claim that God does control everything to a fatalistic extent. Arminian give man so much free will that God has hardly any control at all and is at the mercy of free will. Molinism is a way to have a completely sovereign God and still have free will. The two just happen to coincide so there is no conflict. You freely choose to do exactly what God wants, in other words.

  5. #25
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lao tzu View Post
    Why is this necessary?

    As an actor as well, with sufficient power, even short of omnipotence, I'd think a god would be able to direct events to a desired outcome without foreknowledge of other actors' actions. I don't need to know the future behavior of every molecule in the pot to know if I keep adding heat, it's going to boil.

    I don't see a theological necessity for this. I'm not aware of any necessity arising from exegesis of your sacred texts, either.
    Water molecules aren't free agents.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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  6. #26
    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Water molecules aren't free agents.
    I'm not so sure about that.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lao tzu View Post
    I'm not so sure about that.
    damn. So the universe really IS out to get me!

  8. #28
    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    damn. So the universe really IS out to get me!
    A Canticle for Leibowitz

    "You've called them three times. They've made three promises. We've waited three days. I need a stenographer. Now! Preferably a Christian. That thing– " he waved irritably toward the Abominable Autoscribe– "is a damned infidel or worse. Get rid of it. I want it out of here."

    "The APLAC?"

    "The APLAC. Sell it to an atheist. No, that wouldn't be kind. Sell it as junk. I'm through with it. Why, for Heaven's sake, did Abbot Boumous– may his soul be blessed– ever buy the silly contraption?"

    "Well, Domne, they say your predecessor was fond of gadgets, and it is convenient to be able to write letters in languages you yourself can't speak."

    "It is? You mean it would be. That contraption– listen, Brother, they claim it thinks. I didn't believe it at first. Thought, implying rational principle, implying soul. Can the principle of a 'thinking machine'– man-made– be a rational soul? Bah! It seemed a thoroughly pagan notion at first. But do you know what?"

    "Father?"

    "Nothing could be that perverse without premeditation! It must think! It knows good and evil, I tell you, and it chose the latter."

  9. Amen One Bad Pig amen'd this post.
  10. #29
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    research molinism.

    basically it is this. God knows every free will choice that you will ever make (all of us) and he actualizes the world where all of our free will choices end up aligning with his ultimate plan.
    I don’t understand this. According to you, for what reason would God actualize the world so that I freely choose to be an atheist? Because that latter bit is what has happened. Is me choosing to be an atheist part of His ultimate plan?
    Last edited by crepuscule; 12-20-2017 at 06:35 PM.

  11. #30
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crepuscule View Post
    I don’t understand this. According to you, for what reason would God actualize the world so that I freely choose to be an atheist? Because that latter bit is what has happened. Is me choosing to be an atheist part of His ultimate plan?
    maybe. I was one until I turned 40. Or maybe he can't actualize a world where everyone is saved and you are just one of those who ends up on the outside. Or you being an atheist will somehow convince 10 other people to become Christians.

    The bible actually discusses that very thing:

    Romans 9:20-22New International Version (NIV)

    20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

    If you don't want to be an atheist and/or "prepared for destruction" then don't. You have free will. Use it. Maybe this very thread is meant by God to kick you in the pants and get you to be saved and THAT is the world he is going to actualize through your free will.

  12. Amen Mountain Man amen'd this post.

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