Does an Omniscient Creator Lead to Fatalism?

[Sparko]

That's a relief, cause I was thinking NOBODY could be that dumb and breathe oxygen.

I think he has something funny mixed in with his oxygen.

[shunyadragon]

Foreknowledge is not causation. God's knowing what would happen does not necessarily mean He caused it.

God's foreknowledge and will on how Creation determined the future of events is indeed causation, even though one may propose different outcomes.

[crepuscule]

nope. Because as I said, your choices are all free will. You are still responsible for them. That's kinda the whole point of Molinism and why it came to be versus Calvinism.

Nope what? What I said was pending God’s existence my disbelief in God is either true, or it aligns with God’s plan. Which one do now you deny?

And as for free will: assuming God’s existence, He knows –better than I do- under which circumstances I will freely choose to convert, yet His plan (so far!) is to not bring those circumstances about.

[Sparko]

Nope what? What I said was pending God’s existence my disbelief in God is either true, or it aligns with God’s plan. Which one do now you deny?

And as for free will: assuming God’s existence, He knows –better than I do- under which circumstances I will freely choose to convert, yet His plan (so far!) is to not bring those circumstances about.

Nope that you can't blame God for your free-will choice to disbelieve. And if you don't like that you are unsaved, then do something about it. That will be part of God's plan too.

[crepuscule]

Nope that you can't blame God for your free-will choice to disbelieve. And if you don't like that you are unsaved, then do something about it. That will be part of God's plan too.

I’m not blaming Him, I’m saying that (if He exists) He deliberately brought circumstances about in which He knew I would freely choose atheism. So far His plan is not to bring circumstances about in which He knows I will freely choose theism.

It’s my free choice and responsibility to choose atheism or theism, but it’s God’s choice to bring those circumstances about or not. You can’t pin that responsibility on me.

And if you don't like that you are unsaved,

Who says that I don’t? I don't know what I need to be saved from; I don’t even believe there is a God.

That will be part of God's plan too.

And if I don't do a thing about it is that His plan too?

[Sparko]

I’m not blaming Him, I’m saying that (if He exists) He deliberately brought circumstances about in which He knew I would freely choose atheism. So far His plan is not to bring circumstances about in which He knows I will freely choose theism.

It’s my free choice and responsibility to choose atheism or theism, but it’s God’s choice to bring those circumstances about or not. You can’t pin that responsibility on me.

all right except for your last sentence.

Who says that I don’t? I don't know what I need to be saved from; I don’t even believe there is a God.

So you are saying that IF God put you in these circumstances, then you are quite happy with them because you are doing exactly what you want, of your own free will, right?

And if I don't do a thing about it is that His plan too?

exactly. This universe, if molinism is true, completely allows any free will choice you want to make. And no matter what it is, it will align God's plan in the end.

[JimL]

I’m not blaming Him, I’m saying that (if He exists) He deliberately brought circumstances about in which He knew I would freely choose atheism. So far His plan is not to bring circumstances about in which He knows I will freely choose theism.

It’s my free choice and responsibility to choose atheism or theism, but it’s God’s choice to bring those circumstances about or not. You can’t pin that responsibility on me.

Who says that I don’t? I don't know what I need to be saved from; I don’t even believe there is a God.

And if I don't do a thing about it is that His plan too?

Believe me crepuscule, you can try and explain the error in their thinking until the cows come home, it just doesn't compute. Their brain doesn't allow for it.

[Tassman]

Nope that you can't blame God for your free-will choice to disbelieve.

Well you can...assuming he exists...because he is deemed omniscient. He supposedly knew even before he created you what you would decide at any given point in time.

And if you don't like that you are unsaved, then do something about it. That will be part of God's plan too.

You mean that God knew even before he created you that you would decide to “do something about being saved” at some point in time.

How is this ‘free-will' exactly?

[37818]

Well you can...assuming he exists...because he is deemed omniscient. He supposedly knew even before he created you what you would decide at any given point in time.



You mean that God knew even before he created you that you would decide to “do something about being saved” at some point in time.

How is this ‘free-will' exactly?

Infinite omniscience has no limitations of knowing. And infinite omnipresence cannot be not omniscient.

[crepuscule]

all right except for your last sentence.

Come again? God is not responsible for the universe He wilfully created?

I'm responsible for the choices I make, yes, but usually not for the circumstances under which I make those choices. If someone throws a child in the water and you have the choice to jump in and save or not, are you responsible for the child being thrown in the water?

So you are saying that IF God put you in these circumstances, then you are quite happy with them because you are doing exactly what you want, of your own free will, right?

Well, happy's not what I said, but since you ask, yes. But mind you (again): in that case it was God who chose to present the universe to me that way. He deliberately did not opt for circumstances under which He knew I would freely choose theism. Not my choice, His.

exactly. This universe, if molinism is true, completely allows any free will choice you want to make. And no matter what it is, it will align God's plan in the end.

Then according to you my free will choice to be an atheist aligns with God’s plan.

[Mountain Man]

It was a tribal thing, Moses needed to annihilate his neighbours and take their land and YAHWEH, like all good tribal gods, supported him. That’s what tribal gods are for...to provide the divine imprimatur.

I don't suppose you realize that this verbal diarrhea has nothing to do with the passage I was talking about.

[Mountain Man]

Nope what? What I said was pending God’s existence my disbelief in God is either true, or it aligns with God’s plan. Which one do now you deny?

And as for free will: assuming God’s existence, He knows –better than I do- under which circumstances I will freely choose to convert, yet His plan (so far!) is to not bring those circumstances about.

Or... God has already made the circumstances and evidence available to you, but you have made the freewill choice to reject them. Trust me when I say that nobody is going to stand before God on the Day of Judgment and be able to say, "I had no way of knowing!"

[crepuscule]

Or... God has already made the circumstances and evidence available to you, but you have made the freewill choice to reject them.

You haven't actually read the thread, have you? The point is that -given God's existence and molinism- if God had already made the circumstances and evidence available to me, I would be a theist by now. But since I'm an atheist, God has only done that deliberately to the extent that He knew I would choose atheism.

[Tassman]

I don't suppose you realize that this verbal diarrhea has nothing to do with the passage I was talking about.

It has. God's apparent "change of mind" was an example of what tribal gods do. Namely, providing a divine imprimatur for Moses (in this instance) to rationalise his raping and pillaging and land stealing. It's a tribal thing.

[37818]

. . . -given God's existence and molinism- if God had already made the circumstances and evidence available to me, I would be a theist by now. But since I'm an atheist, God has only done that deliberately to the extent that He knew I would choose atheism.

The Apostle Paul wrote the Roman Christians telling them, "There is none who understands; there is none who seeks God." So how have you sought to find God?