Does an Omniscient Creator Lead to Fatalism?

[Sparko]

That's a relief, cause I was thinking NOBODY could be that dumb and breathe oxygen.

I think he has something funny mixed in with his oxygen.

[shunyadragon]

Foreknowledge is not causation. God's knowing what would happen does not necessarily mean He caused it.

God's foreknowledge and will on how Creation determined the future of events is indeed causation, even though one may propose different outcomes.

[crepuscule]

nope. Because as I said, your choices are all free will. You are still responsible for them. That's kinda the whole point of Molinism and why it came to be versus Calvinism.

freely choose to convert, yet His plan (so far!) is to not bring those circumstances about.

[Sparko]

freely choose to convert, yet His plan (so far!) is to not bring those circumstances about.

Nope that you can't blame God for your free-will choice to disbelieve. And if you don't like that you are unsaved, then do something about it. That will be part of God's plan too.

[crepuscule]

Nope that you can't blame God for your free-will choice to disbelieve. And if you don't like that you are unsaved, then do something about it. That will be part of God's plan too.

myGod

And if you don't like that you are unsaved,

That will be part of God's plan too.

And if I don't do a thing about it is that His plan too?

[Sparko]

myGod

all right except for your last sentence.



So you are saying that IF God put you in these circumstances, then you are quite happy with them because you are doing exactly what you want, of your own free will, right?

And if I don't do a thing about it is that His plan too?

exactly. This universe, if molinism is true, completely allows any free will choice you want to make. And no matter what it is, it will align God's plan in the end.

[JimL]

myGod

Believe me crepuscule, you can try and explain the error in their thinking until the cows come home, it just doesn't compute. Their brain doesn't allow for it.

[Tassman]

Nope that you can't blame God for your free-will choice to disbelieve.

Well you can...assuming he exists...because he is deemed omniscient. He supposedly knew even before he created you what you would decide at any given point in time.

And if you don't like that you are unsaved, then do something about it. That will be part of God's plan too.

[37818]

Infinite omniscience has no limitations of knowing. And infinite omnipresence cannot be not omniscient.

[crepuscule]

all right except for your last sentence.

Come again? God is not responsible for the universe He wilfully created?

I'm responsible for the choices I make, yes, but usually not for the circumstances under which I make those choices. If someone throws a child in the water and you have the choice to jump in and save or not, are you responsible for the child being thrown in the water?

So you are saying that IF God put you in these circumstances, then you are quite happy with them because you are doing exactly what you want, of your own free will, right?

Well, happy's not what I said, but since you ask, yes. But mind you (again): in that case it was God who chose to present the universe to me that way. He deliberately did not opt for circumstances under which He knew I would freely choose theism. Not my choice, His.

exactly. This universe, if molinism is true, completely allows any free will choice you want to make. And no matter what it is, it will align God's plan in the end.

[Mountain Man]

I don't suppose you realize that this verbal diarrhea has nothing to do with the passage I was talking about.

[Mountain Man]

freely choose to convert, yet His plan (so far!) is to not bring those circumstances about.

Or... God has already made the circumstances and evidence available to you, but you have made the freewill choice to reject them. Trust me when I say that nobody is going to stand before God on the Day of Judgment and be able to say, "I had no way of knowing!"

[crepuscule]

Or... God has already made the circumstances and evidence available to you, but you have made the freewill choice to reject them.

You haven't actually read the thread, have you? The point is that -given God's existence and molinism- if God had already made the circumstances and evidence available to me, I would be a theist by now. But since I'm an atheist, God has only done that deliberately to the extent that He knew I would choose atheism.

[Tassman]

I don't suppose you realize that this verbal diarrhea has nothing to do with the passage I was talking about.

It has. God's apparent "change of mind" was an example of what tribal gods do. Namely, providing a divine imprimatur for Moses (in this instance) to rationalise his raping and pillaging and land stealing. It's a tribal thing.

[37818]

. . . -given God's existence and molinism- if God had already made the circumstances and evidence available to me, I would be a theist by now. But since I'm an atheist, God has only done that deliberately to the extent that He knew I would choose atheism.

The Apostle Paul wrote the Roman Christians telling them, "There is none who understands; there is none who seeks God." So how have you sought to find God?