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  • #31
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Or are you pretending that Iran isn't trying to make nuclear weapons?
    I'm not pretending. It's pretty well established that Iran's goal with its nuclear program was nuclear power not nuclear weapons. The Israeli intelligence agencies have consistently said that Iran is neither aiming for nuclear weapons nor taking steps toward making them. That is why Iran so happily and readily agreed to inspections to check they weren't making nuclear weapons: because they weren't. Since the signing of the Iran nuclear agreement, both Israeli intelligence and the International oversight agency monitoring Iran's nuclear program have repeatedly said that Iran is enthusiastically complying with the nuclear treaty.

    Wow. What color is the sky in your world?
    I'll say it again: Iran "is gradually getting its act together and appears to be fast Westernizing and wanting to enter the modern world and ally with the US".

    I get that you have been brainwashed by the crazed conservative propaganda that hyperventilates about Iran being one step away from invading Nebraska and nuking NY. But the facts of the matter are that Iran has been pretty consistently moving towards being a good-faith-actor and honestly seeking to Westernize and ally with the US. There are three main political blocs in Iran: Conservatives who want to keep everything pretty much the way it is, moderates who want to see gradual change and Westernization, and liberals who want to see rapid change and Westernization and want it now.

    Iran has a massive number of young people - over half their population is below 30 - and the young people tend to be liberal and interested in rapid westernization, and the aging religious authorities are hanging onto their current power by their fingertips. The group that the international sanctions on Iran has most annoyed is the young people who want access to the latest iphones etc, and they blame the old religious fogies for unnecessarily mouthing off against America etc and thus preventing them from having nice things. It's a climate where the religious leaders have had to backtrack on their anti-American statements and say things like "Did I say 'death to America the great Satan?' Um, what I really meant was 'death to Americas current Satan-approved foreign policy' and meant it would be nice if they adopt a new and better foreign policy".

    As far as US foreign policy with the country is concerned, being nice to them and seeking to gradually work with them more should work fine. Some nice words to appease the older conservative bloc who remembers the historical wrongs that the US did to Iran, should do the trick. The moderate bloc (who is currently in political power) is happy to negotiate in good faith and move gradually toward an alliance with the West. And the younger liberal bloc who is the future of the country is already on-side, so you only need to be nice to the country for a couple of decades before they're in charge.

    As far as the conservative religious leaders themselves go, you've got to remember that Iran is a Shia nation and their main enemies are actually the Sunni nations in the regions, specifically Saudi Arabia. US actions in the region in the last couple of decades have: Removed the Sunni Taliban from their neighbor Afghanistan; Changed Iraq from being a sunni controlled nation to a shia controlled nation, turning their neighbor from being an enemy (whom they once fought at war against) into an ally; Fighting extensively against the sunni group ISIS; Strengthening the position of sunni Saudi Arabia via an alliance. So much of what the US has done has helped the Shia cause and most of the groups the US has fought in the region are Sunni groups, so the conservative Shia religious leaders in Iran have actually been approving of a lot of the US actions in the region. The one they don't like is the US alliance and arms sales with Saudi Arabia. What they would prefer is for the US to ally with Shia Iran rather than with the Sunni Saudis. So the religious interests of the conservative bloc in Iran are actually pushing them to want to ally with the US, who has been conveniently fighting a lot of their sunni enemies in the region lately.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      I'll say it again: Iran "is gradually getting its act together and appears to be fast Westernizing and wanting to enter the modern world and ally with the US".
      Cite, please.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        I'm pretty sure the funds were transferred immediately.
        That's not what it says, not that I endorse the sourcing.

        Looking more closely, this particular transfer didn't require sanctions relief. A judgment had previously been entered, making the funds available. These were the funds transferred on palettes.


        The President does not have the authority to waive or lift sanctions imposed by Congress, and he expressly did not have that authority prior to Congressional review of the agreement (Congress shouldn't have given him any authority to do that, but that's another issue).
        On the contrary,
        It is the sense of Congress that:

        this Act does not require a vote by Congress for the agreement to commence;
        this Act provides for congressional review, including for approval, disapproval, or no action on statutory sanctions relief under an agreement; and
        even though the agreement may commence, because the sanctions regime was imposed by Congress and only Congress can permanently modify or eliminate that regime ...

        I'm not getting a sense that you've read your sources.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Cite, please.
          I've kept myself up to date with developments in the the middle east from a wide variety of sources over the last several years, but I don't keep them bookmarked sorry...

          However, in related news, yesterday one of my favorite US political commentators did a 45 minute discussion on the subject of Turkey, the Kurds, and Israel, with Stephen Cook who's a Middle East policy expert. It starts here and runs for 45 mins (and after which is the remainder of a political discussion & comedy podcast which may involve bad language). Those commentators cover US foreign policy regularly and their video archives have scores of clips discussing Iran news, covering what US politicians say about Iran, what Iranian politicians say about the US, the Iran deal etc. One of their more interesting segments on Iran was a 3-part skype interview with a group of university students in Iran talking to those students about how they thought about politics and their country, but IIRC the sound quality was a bit poor on the call unfortunately.
          Last edited by Starlight; 12-19-2017, 10:26 PM.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            I

            I'll say it again: Iran "is gradually getting its act together and appears to be fast Westernizing and wanting to enter the modern world and ally with the US".
            Say, have you ever thought of investing in US Landmarks? I have an absolute bargain on this bridge in Brooklyn, New York. Give me a call and we can work out a deal.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              I've kept myself up to date with developments in the the middle east from a wide variety of sources over the last several years, but I don't keep them bookmarked sorry...
              Surely, it wouldn't be too much trouble for you to find your best source to support your notion that is "Iran gradually getting its act together and appears to be fast Westernizing and wanting to enter the modern world and ally with the US".

              However, in related news...
              Let's try to focus on the matter at hand, first.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Surely, it wouldn't be too much trouble for you to find your best source to support your notion that is "Iran gradually getting its act together and appears to be fast Westernizing and wanting to enter the modern world and ally with the US".
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                  That's not what it says, not that I endorse the sourcing.

                  Looking more closely, this particular transfer didn't require sanctions relief. A judgment had previously been entered, making the funds available. These were the funds transferred on palettes.
                  The transfer was rather more reminiscent of money laundering that something legally sanctioned.

                  On the contrary,
                  It is the sense of Congress that:

                  this Act does not require a vote by Congress for the agreement to commence;
                  this Act provides for congressional review, including for approval, disapproval, or no action on statutory sanctions relief under an agreement; and
                  even though the agreement may commence, because the sanctions regime was imposed by Congress and only Congress can permanently modify or eliminate that regime ...

                  I'm not getting a sense that you've read your sources.
                  I'm getting a sense that you're not combating what I actually wrote. I was talking about the sanctions, not the agreement.
                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    I've kept myself up to date with developments in the the middle east from a wide variety of sources over the last several years, but I don't keep them bookmarked sorry...

                    However, in related news, yesterday one of my favorite US political commentators did a 45 minute discussion on the subject of Turkey, the Kurds, and Israel, with Stephen Cook who's a Middle East policy expert. It starts here and runs for 45 mins (and after which is the remainder of a political discussion & comedy podcast which may involve bad language). Those commentators cover US foreign policy regularly and their video archives have scores of clips discussing Iran news, covering what US politicians say about Iran, what Iranian politicians say about the US, the Iran deal etc. One of their more interesting segments on Iran was a 3-part skype interview with a group of university students in Iran talking to those students about how they thought about politics and their country, but IIRC the sound quality was a bit poor on the call unfortunately.
                    Translation: Oops I've been caught with my pants down better try and change the subject so I don't have to admit I only have assertions no proof.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      Obama ran the most corrupt administration in my lifetime, and possibly in the history of the US.
                      Rot and nonsense.
                      "Obama is not a brown-skinned, anti-war socialist who gives away free healthcare. You are thinking of Jesus." Episcopal Bishop of Arizona

                      I remember WinAce. Gone but not forgotten.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        Iran has a massive number of young people - over half their population is below 30 - and the young people tend to be liberal and interested in rapid westernization, and the aging religious authorities are hanging onto their current power by their fingertips. The group that the international sanctions on Iran has most annoyed is the young people who want access to the latest iphones etc, and they blame the old religious fogies for unnecessarily mouthing off against America etc and thus preventing them from having nice things.


                        In US 'we want free college!!!! free healthcare!!!!! Bernie!!!!'

                        In Iran 'I want iphones!!!!!!!'



                        So shallow, superficial. Sad!!!
                        Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by kiwimac View Post
                          Rot and nonsense.
                          The Grant and Harding administrations may have given him a run for his money, but it's unlikely MM was alive back then.
                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment

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