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  • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    Well, technically it's not unknown or dubious whether size applies. We know the answer to that pretty conclusively. Spirit isn't a gas; it's completely immaterial. It doesn't flex/expand/contract or anything of the sort. It doesn't need to.
    Materially, granted. But if spirits have properties in whatever realm/dimension/world they exist in then those properties are unknown (so is whether or not 'properties' even applies).

    No, I don't think it applies - but I made the allowance.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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    • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      Well, technically it's not unknown or dubious whether size applies. We know the answer to that pretty conclusively. Spirit isn't a gas; it's completely immaterial. It doesn't flex/expand/contract or anything of the sort. It doesn't need to.
      But it is contained within the body, right? or no?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        Well that is probably true OBP. I did assume that there would be no sensible reply forthcoming, but I figured I'd give ya's a shot at it at least.
        Weak.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          Materially, granted. But if spirits have properties in whatever realm/dimension/world they exist in then those properties are unknown (so is whether or not 'properties' even applies).
          Eh, I don't know. Size , shape, spatial dimension, etc., are all descriptions of constraints found only in a material world. I think attempting to apply it to any sort of spiritual realm is probably a mistake, and is likely a product of us thinking of things in terms of material...stuff. We're so naturally focused, that it's hard for us to escape this concept that a spirit is like some sort of...vapor...or something, but I think that's simply to misunderstand what spirit is completely. I think it's important to highlight this because apologists often find themselves having to combat skeptical arguments that suggest that spirits (particularly God) have spatial limitations. I think we probably need to be aware of, and guard against that sort of thinking. While it's true that some spirits are able to manifest in the physical, they're not actually physical, and we simply don't know the process that allows them to do that.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            Eh, I don't know. Size , shape, spatial dimension, etc., are all descriptions of constraints found only in a material world. I think attempting to apply it to any sort of spiritual realm is probably a mistake, and is likely a product of us thinking of things in terms of material...stuff. We're so naturally focused, that it's hard for us to escape this concept that a spirit is like some sort of...vapor...or something, but I think that's simply to misunderstand what spirit is completely. I think it's important to highlight this because apologists often find themselves having to combat skeptical arguments that suggest that spirits (particularly God) have spatial limitations. I think we probably need to be aware of, and guard against that sort of thinking. While it's true that some spirits are able to manifest in the physical, they're not actually physical, and we simply don't know the process that allows them to do that.
            I don't disagree - I make the concession because it's an unknown realm. It's most comparable to describing physics 1 milisecond before the Big Bang - there is no way to do it.

            I suspect spirits have properties in their own frame of reference - but obviously not material properties. Expansion and contraction aren't strictly defined (we use them to describe the emotional world as well) so I conceded that there might be something akin to those ideas. It would not be material, but what it would be, I have no idea (not particularly inclined to accept the possibility).

            Probably shouldn't have - Jim will be thinking in material terms and this may just confuse matters.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              But it is contained within the body, right? or no?
              Yes, no, maybe - but mostly, no. A body isn't a jar where something is contained - more like a house where someone lives.

              A better analogy is that of a person with a computer that is connected online. To interact with the internet, the person must interact with the computer. Same thing when a soul interacts with the physical. There comes a point when the person must leave the computer - when the soul does this, we call it death.

              A person could sit in a computer, if it were built to allow it - but the person wouldn't be contained like water (taking the shape) or constrained (unable to leave). Spirits aren't poured into a container - and the body isn't a constraint like a physical container.
              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

              My Personal Blog

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              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                Yes, no, maybe - but mostly, no. A body isn't a jar where something is contained - more like a house where someone lives.

                A better analogy is that of a person with a computer that is connected online. To interact with the internet, the person must interact with the computer. Same thing when a soul interacts with the physical. There comes a point when the person must leave the computer - when the soul does this, we call it death.

                A person could sit in a computer, if it were built to allow it - but the person wouldn't be contained like water (taking the shape) or constrained (unable to leave). Spirits aren't poured into a container - and the body isn't a constraint like a physical container.
                Right. The spirit/soul (depending on whether or not you accept dualism or trialism) may animate the body, but it doesn't fill up the body, like air into a balloon.

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                • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  Right. The spirit/soul (depending on whether or not you accept dualism or trialism) may animate the body, but it doesn't fill up the body, like air into a balloon.
                  Okay, so, the soul doesn't fill up the body, does it fill up part of the body, I mean, is it in the body or not, and if so, then where exactly in the body is it?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    Right. The spirit/soul (depending on whether or not you accept dualism or trialism) may animate the body, but it doesn't fill up the body, like air into a balloon.

                    Aside: do you have a good link for trialism? Wiki is confusing (I think it has mind and spirit equated but I can't tell for sure) and I'm very interested in understanding exactly what this is.

                    Thanks!
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                    Quill Sword

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                    • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                      Aside: do you have a good link for trialism? Wiki is confusing (I think it has mind and spirit equated but I can't tell for sure) and I'm very interested in understanding exactly what this is.

                      Thanks!
                      Hmm. Not off the top of my head. I know scholars like Witherington, Moreland, and the like discuss the subject, but generally speaking, some theologians/Biblical scholars/philosophers see a division between a soul/spirit and a body where the soul and the spirit are synonymous with one another, and with the body they form a duality, while others see a distinct division of spirit, soul, and body. Under this trichotomous view of spirit, soul, and body there is a three part division. We see this particularly in 1st Thessalonians 5:23 "May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

                      There are different opinions about what this means, but generally speaking the idea is that the body is relatively self-explanatory. The soul is the breath-life...that part that animates the body, and may be the seat of emotion (what we share in common with the animal kingdom), and the spirit, that part of the humanity, starting with Adam and Eve, that is uniquely based on the image of God. That's the short and dirty of it. I've probably explained it insufficiently, but I think there's something to the trichotomous view.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        Aside: do you have a good link for trialism? Wiki is confusing (I think it has mind and spirit equated but I can't tell for sure) and I'm very interested in understanding exactly what this is.

                        Thanks!
                        Body, soul, and spirit each having its own mind ... roughly (very roughly) equating for the sake of analogy to the id, ego, and super-ego of Freud's understanding.
                        Soul and spirit are determined to be different by the author of Hebrews: 4:12For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow.

                        Near as I can tell, soul and spirit permeate the body.

                        As for the rest, I tend to think that butterflies sort of provides an assimilable analogy. (except that the resurrected body is imperishable but seemingly indistinguishable by appearance from the pre-death body.)
                        Last edited by tabibito; 01-20-2018, 09:04 PM.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • Thanks, Adrift, Tab.

                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Quill Sword

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            Right. The spirit/soul (depending on whether or not you accept dualism or trialism) may animate the body, but it doesn't fill up the body, like air into a balloon.
                            Soul, mind and consciousness can be reduced to the neurological function of the brain and nervous system. There is no good evidence to indicate that there is more than this.
                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                              Thanks, Adrift, Tab.

                              For the record, I have no idea what Tabibito is talking about. This is the first time I've ever heard anyone compare Christian trialism to Freud's ideas about the id and ego, nor do I know what it means for a soul/spirit to permeate a body.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                                For the record, I have no idea what Tabibito is talking about. This is the first time I've ever heard anyone compare Christian trialism to Freud's ideas about the id and ego, nor do I know what it means for a soul/spirit to permeate a body.
                                Not that I knew of it when I made the post, but 37818 noted that there is a strong interconnection between blood and soul.

                                There are at least four OT references with contextual affinity, where soul is translated as life: Gen 9:4; Lev 17:11,14; Deut 12:23
                                Last edited by tabibito; 01-21-2018, 05:01 AM.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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