Originally posted by Teallaura
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Do you believe in zombies?
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Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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I'm starting to care less and less about those things. They are troublesome, but a far more important issue is the preaching of the gospel.
Of course, if you had your way, that would be outlawed as well.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostCould you please provide this "text"? Thanks.Last edited by JimL; 01-01-2018, 10:14 AM.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostIt's the same mindset that allowed the false religious system of Jesus' day to convince the widow to give her last 2 coins to the priests and go home to starve to death. Fear and control.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostUm, what? The Mosaic covenant is not a false religious system. That its leaders in Jesus' day were corrupt does not change that. She gave out of piety, not fear - Jesus even praised her for it! Please re-think this idea.
Jesus did not even speak to the widow, he was addressing the disciples. He pointed out that she gave sacrificially, compared to the leaders who gave out of their abundance, which was not sacrificially at all.
The woman was a victim of the false system that had developed, more fit to be a recipient of charity than a doner.
On that I will not change my mind.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostUm, yeah - like I said, Jim has it backwards but the basic premise about how the tradition began is correct.
Now, he goes further and concludes this is a form of resurrection - I wouldn't agree but there is a different view of the term clearly in use so while I don't agree, I see where he has a point and is at least partially correct. This seems to me that he's confusing those who get to go to Heaven/Africa with the condemned that became zombies/slaves but as he has the former in use, I can't see that it is blasphemous.
But if he ever uses zombie in a thread title again, I'm gonna mail him a case of kitty poop... [/I][/COLOR]
Digging into this a bit more, there's lots of other issues. Baron Samedi is, of course, not an African concept, he's a Haitian creation (though he probably has roots in some West African deity). Really the only thing that connects the zombie concept to Africa in the Wikipedia source is the half sentence, "The zombie belief has its roots in traditions brought to Haiti by enslaved Africans". That's about it. There's really very little in the way on academic research into the subject. About the best we know is that the word "zombie" likely originates from the West African Mitsogo word ndzumbi which means "corpse", or the kikongo word "nzambi" which originally had roots in the name of the Kongo's highest creator god, Nzambi a Mpungu, but that over time simply referred to one's soul. At some point after the crossover to Haiti that changed, and it went from meaning the soul to being soulless. Dr. Niall Scott from the University of Central Lancashire suggests the following,
What the "bad death" entails, I can't really determine, since none of the books on African religion that I can find say anything more than that Nzambi might impose a "bad death" on certain people. So, from here I think we can see where some of the roots of the Baron Samedi myth originate, but Nzambi is not seen as a cruel spirit like Samedi is. What almost all of the more scholarly sources I've been able to find tell us is that in Haiti, the term zombie originally referred to a spirit or ghost, but later (we don't know exactly how) became associated with the idea of bokor's (witch doctors) controlling a soulless victim through magic to do their bidding often through invoking Baron Samedi in magic rituals.
So, yeah, long story short, this is all over the place, and doesn't really have anything at all to do with the two types of Biblical resurrection (resuscitation to physical life and perfect health in one's original body, or resurrection to a new glorified body).Last edited by Adrift; 01-01-2018, 01:36 PM.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYet, here you are, spewing forth your anti-Christian rantings with impunity on a site owned by Christians. Somebody outta get the comfy chair!
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostI agree that the Mosaic covenant was not a false system; however, by Jesus' day it was so corrupt as to be unrecognizable. When the leaders are corrupt, the followers are sucked into that corruption, unwittingly and unwillingly, but such is the case with corrupt (aka false) religions.
Jesus did not even speak to the widow, he was addressing the disciples. He pointed out that she gave sacrificially, compared to the leaders who gave out of their abundance, which was not sacrificially at all.
The woman was a victim of the false system that had developed, more fit to be a recipient of charity than a doner.
On that I will not change my mind.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostMore to the point, I think, why shouldn't Christians who vote, vote for the things that align with their beliefs? Tassman would have Christians voting against their own interests. Why should they want to do that? If, in the end, voting for X ends up forcing someone to do something they don't want to do, then...oh well. That's the problem with living in a Democracy. Sometimes you won't get your way. There's some people who want to text and drive, but they can't. There are some people who want to smoke in public buildings, but they can't. There are some people who want to start bonfires in their front yard, but they can't. The way you get around laws you don't like in a Democracy is to vote en masse for the laws you prefer. Currently all the things that Tassman likes, i.e. laws for abortion, gay rights, laws against prayer and ten commandments, are in place. What's he complaining about? Democracy has worked out for him just fine in a country that he doesn't live in, but loves to complain about.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI love you, mossy, but your refusal to even look at things from another angle disturbs me. You are absolutely allowing your preconceived notions to color your interpretation of this passage, and the result isn't pretty. Jesus had every opportunity to condemn the system when he drew the disciples' attention to the acts of giving; instead, he praised the sacrificial giving of the widow. Please, PLEASE, at least pray about this.
I love you, too, brother. But Jesus cleared the temple out, twice, with a scourge. And He condemned the religious leaders for their hypocrisy and their terrible dealings with widows and orphans. Over and over again He condemned them for their corruption and evil ways. This incident was no different.
My notions are not preconceived, but have come with study and, yes, prayer, for the Spirit to give me understanding of His word.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostIt's the same mindset that allowed the false religious system of Jesus' day to convince the widow to give her last 2 coins to the priests and go home to starve to death. Fear and control.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostMatthew 27:51-53 Jesus dies, the earthqauke ensues, the tombs are opened, and the corpses are resurrected. That all occurs at the onset of Jesus death. Jesus is then taken down and entombed for a few days before there is another earthquake (Matthew 28:2) and he himself is raised.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI don't see anything in the text wherin the widow was either convinced to, or was forced to, give her last 2 cents to the church. What was the "fear and control" factor that you are claiming. The same can be said of believers today. When I was a very naive young man I remember giving my only twenty dollars which was given to me as a birthday gift or something, can't remember exactly. I know it was a lot more than most people were giving, there was rarely a twenty or even a ten dollar bill in the basket, but it wasn't out of fear or control, I was simply moved by the priests words and his requests for needed money to help the poor. Afaics, that's all that the poor widow passage in Mark is about, the widow was giving all she had because she believed, whereas many simply give a few bucks out of ritual even though they could easily afford to give much more.
WHEN you take the episode in context with everything else that Jesus has said and done regarding the corrupt religious system that the mosaic covenant had become, you can see that He is condemning that works-based system that had become so bound up in traditional laws and sacrifices.
Fear of consequence from not keeping the laws (added to over the centuries by rabbis) kept the populace enslaved to the system.
Bully for you for giving your $20. Im sure you were not coerced in any way. Neither did you go home to starve to death.
And how nice you noticed it was the biggest bill in the plate. You sound just like the Pharisees in Jesus' time. "Ooh! I gave more than anybody else! Aren't I special, not to mention righteous!"
I've explained myself 3 times now.
Carry on with your zombie discussion. But don't monitor Jesus in the same breath.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThere are no laws for abortion,
Originally posted by JimL View Postno ones is forced to have an abortion by law,
Originally posted by JimL View Postthere are no laws against prayer, you for instance are free to pray wherever and whenever you like,
Originally posted by JimL View Postand I have no idea what you mean by saying that there are laws against the ten commandments.
Originally posted by JimL View PostAs far as gay rights, what is your problem with gay people having the same rights that you have?
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