Do you believe in zombies?

[mossrose]

That wasn't what I was asking - what mindset starves the baby to avoid demonic influence but accepts demonic forces remaining in their own bodies? I see CP's point about the politics - I don't get why that works when it's danged near contradictory.

It's the same mindset that allowed the false religious system of Jesus' day to convince the widow to give her last 2 coins to the priests and go home to starve to death. Fear and control.

[mossrose]

That’s true of ALL religion. Evangelicals in particular seek to control the behaviour of others via legislation and social pressure... e.g. re LGBT rights, abortion, public prayer/Ten Commandment monuments etc,

I'm starting to care less and less about those things. They are troublesome, but a far more important issue is the preaching of the gospel.

Of course, if you had your way, that would be outlawed as well.

[mossrose]

Try addressing the issue for a change instead of whining.

Are you arguing that Evangelicals DON’T seek to control the behaviour of others via legislation and social pressure... e.g. re LGBT rights, abortion, public prayer/Ten Commandment monuments etc? If you are then that’s demonstrably untrue. They do. This is one reason why alleged child-molester Roy Moore received such overwhelming Evangelical support.

They don't seek to control issues anymore than leftists do, Tassy. Are you so blind you can't see that?

[JimL]

Could you please provide this "text"? Thanks.

Matthew 27:51-53 Jesus dies, the earthqauke ensues, the tombs are opened, and the corpses are resurrected. That all occurs at the onset of Jesus death. Jesus is then taken down and entombed for a few days before there is another earthquake (Matthew 28:2) and he himself is raised.

[One Bad Pig]

It's the same mindset that allowed the false religious system of Jesus' day to convince the widow to give her last 2 coins to the priests and go home to starve to death. Fear and control.

Um, what? The Mosaic covenant is not a false religious system. That its leaders in Jesus' day were corrupt does not change that. She gave out of piety, not fear - Jesus even praised her for it! Please re-think this idea.

[mossrose]

Um, what? The Mosaic covenant is not a false religious system. That its leaders in Jesus' day were corrupt does not change that. She gave out of piety, not fear - Jesus even praised her for it! Please re-think this idea.

I agree that the Mosaic covenant was not a false system; however, by Jesus' day it was so corrupt as to be unrecognizable. When the leaders are corrupt, the followers are sucked into that corruption, unwittingly and unwillingly, but such is the case with corrupt (aka false) religions.

Jesus did not even speak to the widow, he was addressing the disciples. He pointed out that she gave sacrificially, compared to the leaders who gave out of their abundance, which was not sacrificially at all.

The woman was a victim of the false system that had developed, more fit to be a recipient of charity than a doner.

On that I will not change my mind.

[Adrift]

Um, yeah - like I said, Jim has it backwards but the basic premise about how the tradition began is correct.



Now, he goes further and concludes this is a form of resurrection - I wouldn't agree but there is a different view of the term clearly in use so while I don't agree, I see where he has a point and is at least partially correct. This seems to me that he's confusing those who get to go to Heaven/Africa with the condemned that became zombies/slaves but as he has the former in use, I can't see that it is blasphemous.

But if he ever uses zombie in a thread title again, I'm gonna mail him a case of kitty poop... [/I][/COLOR]

He still has it way more wrong than that. Look at his post #144. He thinks that in traditional Voodoo belief that both the good and the bad are resurrected, some to heaven, and some to slavery, but that's not an accurate reading of the Wikipedia article or it's NY Times' source. First of all, the source material doesn't say anything at all about "good" and "bad" people. It refers to those who have offended Baron Samedi (an evil god) and those who have not. The souls of those who have not offended Baron Semedi don't resurrect at all (resurrection requires a body), their souls simply move on to heavenly Africa. The souls of those who have offended Baron Semedi are trapped in their bodies, so again, we're not really talking resurrection, instead we're talking some sort of undead state. But even the source material is contradictory, since traditionally, the zombie has no soul.

Digging into this a bit more, there's lots of other issues. Baron Samedi is, of course, not an African concept, he's a Haitian creation (though he probably has roots in some West African deity). Really the only thing that connects the zombie concept to Africa in the Wikipedia source is the half sentence, "The zombie belief has its roots in traditions brought to Haiti by enslaved Africans". That's about it. There's really very little in the way on academic research into the subject. About the best we know is that the word "zombie" likely originates from the West African Mitsogo word ndzumbi which means "corpse", or the kikongo word "nzambi" which originally had roots in the name of the Kongo's highest creator god, Nzambi a Mpungu, but that over time simply referred to one's soul. At some point after the crossover to Haiti that changed, and it went from meaning the soul to being soulless. Dr. Niall Scott from the University of Central Lancashire suggests the following,

Source: Monsters and the Monstrous: Myths and Metaphors of Enduring Evil by Niall Scott

By the twentieth century, the term "zombie" had ceased to represent spirit and came to represent an absence of spirit. This change is partially a result of mythology passed down from the Bakongo tribe. In the lower Congo River area, Nzambi was a term denoting the "sovereign Master", the deity that placed man on Earth and takes him away at the moment of death. Men were expected to live under the nkondo mi Nzambi, or "God's prohibitions". To violate these laws was a sin against Nzambi, or suma ku Nzambi, for which Nzambi might impose lufwa lumbi, the "bad death".

© Copyright Original Source

What the "bad death" entails, I can't really determine, since none of the books on African religion that I can find say anything more than that Nzambi might impose a "bad death" on certain people. So, from here I think we can see where some of the roots of the Baron Samedi myth originate, but Nzambi is not seen as a cruel spirit like Samedi is. What almost all of the more scholarly sources I've been able to find tell us is that in Haiti, the term zombie originally referred to a spirit or ghost, but later (we don't know exactly how) became associated with the idea of bokor's (witch doctors) controlling a soulless victim through magic to do their bidding often through invoking Baron Samedi in magic rituals.

So, yeah, long story short, this is all over the place, and doesn't really have anything at all to do with the two types of Biblical resurrection (resuscitation to physical life and perfect health in one's original body, or resurrection to a new glorified body).

[Adrift]

Yet, here you are, spewing forth your anti-Christian rantings with impunity on a site owned by Christians. Somebody outta get the comfy chair!

More to the point, I think, why shouldn't Christians who vote, vote for the things that align with their beliefs? Tassman would have Christians voting against their own interests. Why should they want to do that? If, in the end, voting for X ends up forcing someone to do something they don't want to do, then...oh well. That's the problem with living in a Democracy. Sometimes you won't get your way. There's some people who want to text and drive, but they can't. There are some people who want to smoke in public buildings, but they can't. There are some people who want to start bonfires in their front yard, but they can't. The way you get around laws you don't like in a Democracy is to vote en masse for the laws you prefer. Currently all the things that Tassman likes, i.e. laws for abortion, gay rights, laws against prayer and ten commandments, are in place. What's he complaining about? Democracy has worked out for him just fine in a country that he doesn't live in, but loves to complain about.

[One Bad Pig]

I agree that the Mosaic covenant was not a false system; however, by Jesus' day it was so corrupt as to be unrecognizable. When the leaders are corrupt, the followers are sucked into that corruption, unwittingly and unwillingly, but such is the case with corrupt (aka false) religions.

Jesus did not even speak to the widow, he was addressing the disciples. He pointed out that she gave sacrificially, compared to the leaders who gave out of their abundance, which was not sacrificially at all.

The woman was a victim of the false system that had developed, more fit to be a recipient of charity than a doner.

On that I will not change my mind.

I love you, mossy, but your refusal to even look at things from another angle disturbs me. You are absolutely allowing your preconceived notions to color your interpretation of this passage, and the result isn't pretty. Jesus had every opportunity to condemn the system when he drew the disciples' attention to the acts of giving; instead, he praised the sacrificial giving of the widow. Please, PLEASE, at least pray about this.

[JimL]

More to the point, I think, why shouldn't Christians who vote, vote for the things that align with their beliefs? Tassman would have Christians voting against their own interests. Why should they want to do that? If, in the end, voting for X ends up forcing someone to do something they don't want to do, then...oh well. That's the problem with living in a Democracy. Sometimes you won't get your way. There's some people who want to text and drive, but they can't. There are some people who want to smoke in public buildings, but they can't. There are some people who want to start bonfires in their front yard, but they can't. The way you get around laws you don't like in a Democracy is to vote en masse for the laws you prefer. Currently all the things that Tassman likes, i.e. laws for abortion, gay rights, laws against prayer and ten commandments, are in place. What's he complaining about? Democracy has worked out for him just fine in a country that he doesn't live in, but loves to complain about.

There are no laws for abortion, no ones is forced to have an abortion by law, there are no laws against prayer, you for instance are free to pray wherever and whenever you like, and I have no idea what you mean by saying that there are laws against the ten commandments. As far as gay rights, what is your problem with gay people having the same rights that you have?

[mossrose]

I love you, mossy, but your refusal to even look at things from another angle disturbs me. You are absolutely allowing your preconceived notions to color your interpretation of this passage, and the result isn't pretty. Jesus had every opportunity to condemn the system when he drew the disciples' attention to the acts of giving; instead, he praised the sacrificial giving of the widow. Please, PLEASE, at least pray about this.

I love you, too, brother. But Jesus cleared the temple out, twice, with a scourge. And He condemned the religious leaders for their hypocrisy and their terrible dealings with widows and orphans. Over and over again He condemned them for their corruption and evil ways. This incident was no different.

My notions are not preconceived, but have come with study and, yes, prayer, for the Spirit to give me understanding of His word.

[JimL]

It's the same mindset that allowed the false religious system of Jesus' day to convince the widow to give her last 2 coins to the priests and go home to starve to death. Fear and control.

I don't see anything in the text wherin the widow was either convinced to, or was forced to, give her last 2 cents to the church. What was the "fear and control" factor that you are claiming. The same can be said of believers today. When I was a very naive young man I remember giving my only twenty dollars which was given to me as a birthday gift or something, can't remember exactly. I know it was a lot more than most people were giving, there was rarely a twenty or even a ten dollar bill in the basket, but it wasn't out of fear or control, I was simply moved by the priests words and his requests for needed money to help the poor. Afaics, that's all that the poor widow passage in Mark is about, the widow was giving all she had because she believed, whereas many simply give a few bucks out of ritual even though they could easily afford to give much more.

[Cow Poke]

Matthew 27:51-53 Jesus dies, the earthqauke ensues, the tombs are opened, and the corpses are resurrected. That all occurs at the onset of Jesus death. Jesus is then taken down and entombed for a few days before there is another earthquake (Matthew 28:2) and he himself is raised.

Jim, it would really help if you would post the actual text, as there are myriad versions of the Bible - post the actual text, not your rendition of it, please. Or, at least identify the version of the Bible you're referencing.

[mossrose]

I don't see anything in the text wherin the widow was either convinced to, or was forced to, give her last 2 cents to the church. What was the "fear and control" factor that you are claiming. The same can be said of believers today. When I was a very naive young man I remember giving my only twenty dollars which was given to me as a birthday gift or something, can't remember exactly. I know it was a lot more than most people were giving, there was rarely a twenty or even a ten dollar bill in the basket, but it wasn't out of fear or control, I was simply moved by the priests words and his requests for needed money to help the poor. Afaics, that's all that the poor widow passage in Mark is about, the widow was giving all she had because she believed, whereas many simply give a few bucks out of ritual even though they could easily afford to give much more.

WHEN you take the episode in context with everything else that Jesus has said and done regarding the corrupt religious system that the mosaic covenant had become, you can see that He is condemning that works-based system that had become so bound up in traditional laws and sacrifices.

Fear of consequence from not keeping the laws (added to over the centuries by rabbis) kept the populace enslaved to the system.

Bully for you for giving your $20. Im sure you were not coerced in any way. Neither did you go home to starve to death.

And how nice you noticed it was the biggest bill in the plate. You sound just like the Pharisees in Jesus' time. "Ooh! I gave more than anybody else! Aren't I special, not to mention righteous!"



I've explained myself 3 times now.

Carry on with your zombie discussion. But don't monitor Jesus in the same breath.

[Adrift]

There are no laws for abortion,

What are you talking about? There are tons of laws on abortion, see here for instance: https://www.guttmacher.org/state-pol...-abortion-laws

no ones is forced to have an abortion by law,

I don't recall saying as much.

there are no laws against prayer, you for instance are free to pray wherever and whenever you like,

Yes there are. See here for instance, http://statelaws.findlaw.com/educati...hool-laws.html

and I have no idea what you mean by saying that there are laws against the ten commandments.

See here for example, https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...itol/73445134/ and here, http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2017/...ents-monument/

As far as gay rights, what is your problem with gay people having the same rights that you have?

I have absolutely nothing against gay people having the same rights as me. But why are you asking me about all of these issues? These were the issues that Tassman showed concern for in his post #138. Ask him what his deal is.