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**JimL** · 01-01-2018, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by Adrift View Post

What are you talking about? There are tons of laws on abortion, see here for instance: https://www.guttmacher.org/state-pol...-abortion-laws

I don't recall saying as much.

Yes there are. See here for instance, http://statelaws.findlaw.com/educati...hool-laws.html

See here for example, https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...itol/73445134/ and here, http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2017/...ents-monument/

Those are not laws, as you put it, for abortion, or against the ten Commandments, nor are they laws against prayer, they are laws regulating abortion, and regulating the placement of religious monuments in public spaces. People are free to pray whenever they like.

I have absolutely nothing against gay people having the same rights as me. But why are you asking me about all of these issues? These were the issues that Tassman showed concern for in his post #138. Ask him what his deal is.

Because you're the one who listed gay rights as one of those things that liberal atheists like myself defend, implying that you are against it.

**JimL** · 01-01-2018, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by mossrose View Post

WHEN you take the episode in context with everything else that Jesus has said and done regarding the corrupt religious system that the mosaic covenant had become, you can see that He is condemning that works-based system that had become so bound up in traditional laws and sacrifices.

Fear of consequence from not keeping the laws (added to over the centuries by rabbis) kept the populace enslaved to the system.

Okay, if that's what you get out of it. I see it very differently.

Bully for you for giving your $20. Im sure you were not coerced in any way. Neither did you go home to starve to death.

All true.

And how nice you noticed it was the biggest bill in the plate. You sound just like the Pharisees in Jesus' time. "Ooh! I gave more than anybody else! Aren't I special, not to mention righteous!"

No, that's just you're hatred talking. But maybe now you've got it, that's exactly what Jesus was speaking to and condemning in the widows story.

**Tassman** · 01-01-2018, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by mossrose View Post

I'm starting to care less and less about those things.

That may well be the case for you, but many of your fellow believers are actively involved in trying to get their own way re such things as LGBT rights, abortion, public prayer/Ten Commandment monuments etc.

They are troublesome, but a far more important issue is the preaching of the gospel.

Of course, if you had your way, that would be outlawed as well.

There is nothing to prevent you preaching the gospel in appropriate venues...e.g. churches, at religious rallies etc. But no religious groups have carte blanche to preach where and how they like as Kitzmiller v. Dover and the Scopes trial have demonstrated.

Originally posted by mossrose View Post

They don't seek to control issues anymore than leftists do, Tassy. Are you so blind you can't see that?

Not really. The common goal among "leftist movements" is social equality and full civil rights for all citizens. By contrast, the goal among many Evangelicals is to deny full civil rights for some people based upon biblical precepts.

**Teallaura** · 01-02-2018, 12:15 AM

Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

Jim, it would really help if you would post the actual text, as there are myriad versions of the Bible - post the actual text, not your rendition of it, please. Or, at least identify the version of the Bible you're referencing.

Matt 27: 50- 54. WEB

50 Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit. 51 Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 Now the centurion, and those who were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, �Truly this was the Son of God.�

http://ebible.org/study/

Okay, I had to read it twice to catch the clarifying clause. The mention occurs before the mention of the Resurrection of Jesus - but it is specified as occurring later.

**Cow Poke** · 01-02-2018, 06:46 AM

Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

Matt 27: 50- 54. WEB

50 Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit. 51 Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 Now the centurion, and those who were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, �Truly this was the Son of God.�

http://ebible.org/study/

Okay, I had to read it twice to catch the clarifying clause. The mention occurs before the mention of the Resurrection of Jesus - but it is specified as occurring later.

Yeah, I think he's trying to force a strict chronology against the text. I thought maybe he was reading a version that didn't make that distinction. He got SO MUCH wrong about this, but I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt on this.

**Adrift** · 01-02-2018, 08:29 AM

Originally posted by JimL View Post

Those are not laws, as you put it, for abortion, or against the ten Commandments, nor are they laws against prayer, they are laws regulating abortion, and regulating the placement of religious monuments in public spaces. People are free to pray whenever they like.

Those are laws. Read the links. Or are you claiming that abortion is illegal, that the Ten Commandments were not removed from the Oklahoma capital and at the New Kensington highschool, and that school led prayer is legal, and/or that it can be done loudly by students?

Originally posted by JimL View Post

Because you're the one who listed gay rights as one of those things that liberal atheists like myself defend, implying that you are against it.

I was copying Tassman's list, see above. And yes, I would assume that liberal atheists generally are for gay rights moreso than conservative theists. Is that so strange?

**JimL** · 01-02-2018, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

Yeah, I think he's trying to force a strict chronology against the text. I thought maybe he was reading a version that didn't make that distinction. He got SO MUCH wrong about this, but I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt on this.

Wrong. The saints were said to be resurrected upon Jesus death, the first earthquake,-Matthew 27:50-54, whereas Jesus was resurrected 3 days later, the second earthquake-Matthew 28:2.

**JimL** · 01-02-2018, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by Adrift View Post

Those are laws. Read the links. Or are you claiming that abortion is illegal, that the Ten Commandments were not removed from the Oklahoma capital and at the New Kensington highschool, and that school led prayer is legal, and/or that it can be done loudly by students?

They are not laws for abortion, as you put it, they are laws regulating abortion, they are not laws against the Ten Commandments, they are laws regulating the placement of religious monuments, and they are not laws against praying, they are laws regulating religious nuts from leading forced prayer in public schools. People are not banned from praying, they can pray whatever they want wherever they want.

I was copying Tassman's list, see above. And yes, I would assume that liberal atheists generally are for gay rights moreso than conservative theists. Is that so strange?

Okay, so you're for discriminating against gay people. That's what I thought. Thank God for the LGBT community that religious bigots don't rule the country.

**Cow Poke** · 01-02-2018, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by JimL View Post

Wrong. The saints were said to be resurrected upon Jesus death, the first earthquake,-Matthew 27:50-54, whereas Jesus was resurrected 3 days later, the second earthquake-Matthew 28:2.

Jim, you're forcing your own interpretation on the Matt 27:50-54 passage. I have repeatedly asked you to provide the actual text you're looking at, not just your interpretation.... let me try to do it this way. Can you do a "copy paste" of the passage as you're reading it? In the version you're reading it?

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the Matthew 27 account says... here's the ESV version....

Matt 27:51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

It's the same in most versions I've listed previously, but here they are again....

New International Version
They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

New Living Translation
They left the cemetery after Jesus' resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people.

English Standard Version
and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Berean Study Bible
After Jesus' resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

Berean Literal Bible
And having gone forth out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.

New American Standard Bible
and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

King James Bible
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And they came out of the tombs after His resurrection, entered the holy city, and appeared to many.

International Standard Version
After his resurrection, they came out of their tombs, went into the Holy City, and appeared to many people.

NET Bible
(They came out of the tombs after his resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.)

New Heart English Bible
and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And they came out, and after his resurrection, they entered the Holy City, and they appeared to many.

GOD'S WORD� Translation
They came out of the tombs after he had come back to life, and they went into the holy city where they appeared to many people.

New American Standard 1977
and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

Jubilee Bible 2000
and came out of the graves after his resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared unto many.

King James 2000 Bible
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

American King James Version
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared to many.

American Standard Version
and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many.

Darby Bible Translation
and going out of the tombs after his arising, entered into the holy city and appeared unto many.

English Revised Version
and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many.

Webster's Bible Translation
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared to many.

Weymouth New Testament
And coming out of their tombs after Christ's resurrection they entered the holy city and showed themselves to many.

World English Bible
and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.

Young's Literal Translation
and having come forth out of the tombs after his rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many.

Here is a breakdown of the text from the ESV. In verses 51 to 52, some facts are stated...

51And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,

Note that vs 52 ends in a comma, not a period, so vs 53 is a continuation, providing the qualifier....

53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

The "appearing to many" quite obviously was "after the resurrection".

**Adrift** · 01-02-2018, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

Yeah, I think he's trying to force a strict chronology against the text. I thought maybe he was reading a version that didn't make that distinction. He got SO MUCH wrong about this, but I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt on this.

The reading can go either way, and some commentators and translators choose the one way over the other. NT scholar R.T. France, for instance, suggests that Matthew is simply not sticking to a strict chronological order. NT scholar Craig Blomberg suggests the following,

Source: Matthew: An Exegetical and Theological Exposition of Holy Scripture by Craig L. Blomberg

This episode further foreshadows 1 Cor 15:23. As the NIV stands, Matthew's account contradicts Paul, inasmuch as the saints actually precede Christ out of the tomb. But the text should probably be punctuated with a period after the "tombs broke open." Then the rest of vv. 52b-53 would read, And the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life, and, having come out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection, they went into the Holy City [i.e., Jerusalem]. Contra the NIV rendering of v. 53, there is no "and" in the Greek nor any other reason to pause between "tombs" and "after."

© Copyright Original Source

Still others, like NT scholar Craig Evans, suggest that the whole narrative of the saints is a later post-Matthean interpolation added probably around the late second century (contra Raymond Brown who sees the passage as likely pre-Matthean, and added by the author of Matthew).

**Adrift** · 01-02-2018, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by JimL View Post

They are not laws for abortion, as you put it, they are laws regulating abortion, they are not laws against the Ten Commandments, they are laws regulating the placement of religious monumounts, and they are not laws against praying, they are laws regulating religious nuts from leading forced prayer in public schools. People are not banned from praying, they can pray whatever they want wherever they want.

You're simply repeating yourself. I've already replied to this objection. If you don't think Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton and other such laws decriminalized abortion, I don't know what to tell you. In the end though, your argument is with Tassman, not me. He's the one fretting about "believers actively involved in trying to get their own way re such things as LGBT rights, abortion, public prayer/Ten Commandment monuments". Why aren't you arguing with him?

Originally posted by JimL View Post

Okay, so you're for discriminating against gay people. That's what I thought. Thank God for the LGBT community that religious bigots don't rule the country.

I'm not sure how you got that out of my reply. I'm not for the discrimination of gay people.

**JimL** · 01-02-2018, 09:34 AM