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Black Lives Matter gets what they want, and it's not what they want

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    So, in summary -- You may get what you want, but you may not want what you get.

    I did it. Jed.
    "Be careful what you wish for. You might get it."

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      That story is just as biased as the other. You just don't see it because it affirms your own bias. It fails to mention that the BLM not only in Baltimore but across the country made it clear that anytime a black person was killed, they considered it police abuse and murder, even when the guy was obviously a criminal and was attacking the police. They also didn't mention things like police being murdered on the streets in various cities. Or the fact that the BLM routinely called for cops to leave their neighborhoods.
      OK - I've been through that article multiple times now. The article was about Baltimore - so it is not clear to me why they would bring in the entire U.S. I am not finding ANY of the rest of the things you listed in the article. You would have to tell me exactly what part of the article leaves you with these impressions. I have no stake on Baltimore, so I am not sure what "bias" you think the article is affirming. The article cites multiple possibilities, narrows down on the conventional wisdom (which aligns with the Brietbart article), and quotes several citizens with different perspectives. As far as I can tell, it reports news without taking a position on it, unlike the Brietbart article. The NPR article is similar, but uses an inflammatory title to get eyeballs.

      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      The truth is that the BLM are a bunch of thugs who don't want police around so they can have free reign. But there are other blacks in these neighborhoods who only want to live in peace and want the police there. They are the ones calling for the police to come back. Some of them might have been caught up in the BLM cause but have come to their senses.
      I cannot speak for every person who has ever claimed the banner "Black Lives Matter" and I am sure there are nuts out there. I CAN point you to their official position (https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/what-we-believe/) and note that none of what you accuse them of is part of their position. I can also tell you that I am a member (and yes, I'm white, but my children are black) and I know the local chapter members. They are nothing like what you paint here. Knowing them and working with them, you statement is (to me) the equivalent of calling the local PTA or the local rotary club "a bunch of thugs." Here, the chapter is working closely WITH the police department to address intrinsic bias of all types, and with the local community to foster a greater degree of citizen/police inter-cooperation. They are literally taking the lead in introducing the people to the police and the police to the people - on the basic theory that it is harder to hate people we have come to know.

      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      The biggest problem is that if the police do intervene and some other black person gets killed, it will start all over again.
      Your last sentence, unfortunately, is probably true. There is a huge discrepancy between the ways black and white people are treated in this country, so another black death at the hands of the police is likely to trigger a reaction. I have experienced the difference in treatment personally. I can relate the story if anyone is interested. But I have seen first hand the way a black man is treated versus the way a white man is treated in similar circumstances. I also understand the dynamic. When a disproportionate number of crimes are commited by one type of person, it becomes pretty natural to suspect that type of person when you see them. Unfortunately, that is the heart of intrinsic bias, and it is dangerous to both the police and the community. It is not something to point fingers and attack over - it is simply a situation that could (and should) be addressed.
      Last edited by carpedm9587; 01-03-2018, 07:55 AM.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        I agree that if citizens complain no matter what is done, the cycle is inevitable. Somehow, I doubt that is what is going on. My experience is that the complaints come from different citizens at different times.
        1. Some citizens become active and push for a change
        2. They get the change and are happy
        3. Other citizens that didn't want the change get active and push for a change
        4. The change happens and they are happy
        5. Return to #1


        THAT is not something I think will change so long as there are multiple groups in the same community, but perhaps the frequency/amplitude of the cycle can be altered by addressing the racial bias issue and changing the interaction dynamic between the force and the community: preserving the presence by changing the dynamics.
        When I used to watch the local news (before a large portion of their "news" became promos for programs on their channel and upcoming events) I would see the same "usual suspects" complaining about too much of a police presence in their neighborhood and then roughly a year later the same group would be complaining that the police have abandoned them.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          So, in summary -- You may get what you want, but you may not want what you get.

          I did it. Jed.
          You did a CP, Jed!!!!


          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            exactly. The ordinary citizens get riled up by these people and get caught up in the drama, doing whatever the "leaders" want. Then later regret it. The "leaders" only care about being in the public eye and on TV to increase their reputation and power. They will pretty much take any incident and blow it out of proportion to get people angry and protest, so they can take the podium and pontificate.
            And, naturally, they don't want to be around when things go bad for their followers, because somebody might actually point out their hypocrisy. They'll wait for something like another incident of a black person being killed by a white cop, regardless of the circumstances.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              When I used to watch the local news (before a large portion of their "news" became promos for programs on their channel and upcoming events) I would see the same "usual suspects" complaining about too much of a police presence in their neighborhood and then roughly a year later the same group would be complaining that the police have abandoned them.
              I'm sure it happens. It's not clear to me that it's the norm.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                OK - I've been through that article multiple times now. The article was about Baltimore - so it is not clear to me why they would bring in the entire U.S. I am not finding ANY of the rest of the things you listed in the article. You would have to tell me exactly what part of the article leaves you with these impressions. I have no stake on Baltimore, so I am not sure what "bias" you think the article is affirming. The article cites multiple possibilities, narrows down on the conventional wisdom (which aligns with the Brietbart article), and quotes several citizens with different perspectives. As far as I can tell, it reports news without taking a position on it, unlike the Brietbart article. The NPR article is similar, but uses an inflammatory title to get eyeballs.
                The articles downplay what BLM wants and has caused to happen: fewer cops.


                I cannot speak for every person who has ever claimed the banner "Black Lives Matter" and I am sure there are nuts out there. I CAN point you to their official position (https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/what-we-believe/) and note that none of what you accuse them of is part of their position. I can also tell you that I am a member (and yes, I'm white, but my children are black) and I know the local chapter members. They are nothing like what you paint here. Knowing them and working with them, you statement is (to me) the equivalent of calling the local PTA or the local rotary club "a bunch of thugs." Here, the chapter is working closely WITH the police department to address intrinsic bias of all types, and with the local community to foster a greater degree of citizen/police inter-cooperation. They are literally taking the lead in introducing the people to the police and the police to the people - on the basic theory that it is harder to hate people we have come to know.
                I am sure there are lots of well meaning members of BLM out there. But the ones in the streets are the ones who get heard and they are the ones calling for less police and even dead police. For you to pretend like none of that has happened in the last two years is dishonest. You are yourself trying to downplay their influence.

                Some random photos I goggled about BLM:

                black-lives-matter-kill-white-supremacists-ap-640x480.jpg
                blm-protest-uc-irvine-facebook-640x480.jpg
                sharptoncops.jpg




                Your last sentence, unfortunately, is probably true. There is a huge discrepancy between the ways black and white people are treated in this country, so another black death at the hands of the police is likely to trigger a reaction. I have experienced the difference in treatment personally. I can relate the story if anyone is interested. But I have seen first hand the way a black man is treated versus the way a white man is treated in similar circumstances. I also understand the dynamic. When a disproportionate number of crimes are commited by one type of person, it becomes pretty natural to suspect that type of person when you see them. Unfortunately, that is the heart of intrinsic bias, and it is dangerous to both the police and the community. It is not something to point fingers and attack over - it is simply a situation that could (and should) be addressed.[/QUOTE]

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  The articles downplay what BLM wants and has caused to happen: fewer cops.
                  Read the official BLM vision, Sparko. Visit a BLM chapter. Nowhere have I seen "fewer cops" as their goal. I HAVE seen it in the news (see below).

                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  I am sure there are lots of well meaning members of BLM out there. But the ones in the streets are the ones who get heard and they are the ones calling for less police and even dead police. For you to pretend like none of that has happened in the last two years is dishonest. You are yourself trying to downplay their influence.

                  Some random photos I goggled about BLM:

                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]25775[/ATTACH]
                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]25776[/ATTACH]
                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]25777[/ATTACH]
                  Sparko - you are falling into the "news trap." Googling a few pictures simply doesn't make your case. Why? Because news outlets tend to report stories that get eyeballs. And some of them specifically and purposefully emphasize a message/agenda they want you to get. If you google "U.S. Terrorist Attack" you will find hundreds and thousands of photos. Search for the news stories, and you would think terrorist attacks on U.S. soil are significant and regular occurences. The reality is they are extremely rare. So why are there almost twice as many stories about terrorist attacks than about domestic mass shootings (which statistically happen every few days?). Because terrorism is a cause celebre - and people READ those stories. It gets eyeballs.

                  A big black man with a T-Shirt that says "kill white supremacists" is news worthy. Is part of the picture. It does not prove that this is the BLM agenda. You have to go past the mantra being screamed from Brietbart, Fox, and even CNN and MSNBC, and go looking for the PEOPLE.

                  children-of-hate.jpg

                  What you are doing is no different than my posting this picture (above) and using it to defend a claim that Christianity is a religion of hate. Yes - there are Christians who hate. But that is NOT what Christianity is all about. The few do not speak for the whole, even if they DO often get the headlines.

                  People who are angry sometimes say and do things out of that anger. It is VERY important that we do not dismiss everyone else because of the actions of a few - even if they ARE very vocal.
                  Last edited by carpedm9587; 01-03-2018, 10:34 AM.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    Read the official BLM vision, Sparko. Visit a BLM chapter. Nowhere have I seen "fewer cops" as their goal. I HAVE seen it in the news (see below).



                    Sparko - you are falling into the "news trap." Googling a few pictures simply doesn't make your case. Why? Because news outlets tend to report stories that get eyeballs. And some of them specifically and purposefully emphasize a message/agenda they want you to get. If you google "U.S. Terrorist Attack" you will find hundreds and thousands of photos. Search for the news stories, and you would think terrorist attacks on U.S. soil are significant and regular occurences. The reality is they are extremely rare. So why are there almost twice as many stories about terrorist attacks than about domestic mass shootings (which statistically happen every few days?). Because terrorism is a cause celebre - and people READ those stories. It gets eyeballs.

                    A big black man with a T-Shirt that says "kill white supremacists" is news worthy. Is part of the picture. It does not prove that this is the BLM agenda. You have to go past the mantra being screamed from Brietbart, Fox, and even CNN and MSNBC, and go looking for the PEOPLE.

                    [ATTACH=CONFIG]25778[/ATTACH]

                    What you are doing is no different than my posting this picture (above) and using it to defend a claim that Christianity is a religion of hate. Yes - there are Christians who hate. But that is NOT what Christianity is all about. The few do not speak for the whole, even if they DO often get the headlines.

                    People who are angry sometimes say and do things out of that anger. It is VERY important that we do not dismiss everyone else because of the actions of a few - even if they ARE very vocal.
                    no what you are doing is turning a blind eye on what the BLM has done over the last two years. By "random" I don't mean just picking photos out of a random search. I mean randomly from the overwhelming number of news articles about the BLM. About what they did over the last couple of years. Not what your local chapter does. What do you always say? That an example is not evidence or something? Your personal anecdote does not change what the BLM has been doing in the streets for the last few years.

                    I am sure they keep everything nice and clean on their website, after all calling for dead cops on there would probably get them shut down pretty quick. But either they have very lousy control over their members, or they are actually a hate group because no matter what they say on their website, what we actually have seen in public is totally different, as represented by those photos in a very small part.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      no what you are doing is turning a blind eye on what the BLM has done over the last two years. By "random" I don't mean just picking photos out of a random search. I mean randomly from the overwhelming number of news articles about the BLM. About what they did over the last couple of years. Not what your local chapter does. What do you always say? That an example is not evidence or something? Your personal anecdote does not change what the BLM has been doing in the streets for the last few years.
                      What people calling themselves "BLM" have done, Sparko. You are correct that my local chapter is merely one data point. That is why I provided the link to the formal organization, which links to their activities worldwide. But I have the sense that the Brietbart, Fox, and Drudge reports about BLM are going to take precedence no matter what I say. Go to the source, my friend. Find out what they are actually doing.

                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      I am sure they keep everything nice and clean on their website, after all calling for dead cops on there would probably get them shut down pretty quick. But either they have very lousy control over their members, or they are actually a hate group because no matter what they say on their website, what we actually have seen in public is totally different, as represented by those photos in a very small part.
                      I think you and I both know that things on the Internet don't have to be "clean" or they get taken down. I cannot provide you links here without violating terms of use, but there are some VERY nasty things out there, and they do not get taken down. What you are seeing in public is simply being skewed by media for news sake. They are struggling against it. I've sat in on the national calls, as well as the local ones. Unfortunately, because there are so many people like you pushing the false narrative, media outlets like Brietbart pushing that same narrative, other media outlets just looking for sensational stories, and enough people in the streets claiming to be BLM and acting out in their name, they are having a lot of trouble getting the message out.

                      I was hoping, just maybe, my contribution would be to be able to tell them there was at least one less voice out there against them. I guess not

                      I can only hope others will read this series, go looking for themselves, and discover what is actually going on. Maybe it will be one little tiny nudge in the right direction.

                      I'll let you have the last word if you wish to, unless you ask me a question you want answered.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        What people calling themselves "BLM" have done, Sparko. You are correct that my local chapter is merely one data point. That is why I provided the link to the formal organization, which links to their activities worldwide. But I have the sense that the Brietbart, Fox, and Drudge reports about BLM are going to take precedence no matter what I say. Go to the source, my friend. Find out what they are actually doing.



                        I think you and I both know that things on the Internet don't have to be "clean" or they get taken down. I cannot provide you links here without violating terms of use, but there are some VERY nasty things out there, and they do not get taken down. What you are seeing in public is simply being skewed by media for news sake. They are struggling against it. I've sat in on the national calls, as well as the local ones. Unfortunately, because there are so many people like you pushing the false narrative, media outlets like Brietbart pushing that same narrative, other media outlets just looking for sensational stories, and enough people in the streets claiming to be BLM and acting out in their name, they are having a lot of trouble getting the message out.

                        I was hoping, just maybe, my contribution would be to be able to tell them there was at least one less voice out there against them. I guess not

                        I can only hope others will read this series, go looking for themselves, and discover what is actually going on. Maybe it will be one little tiny nudge in the right direction.

                        I'll let you have the last word if you wish to, unless you ask me a question you want answered.
                        word.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          word.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            When I used to watch the local news (before a large portion of their "news" became promos for programs on their channel and upcoming events) I would see the same "usual suspects" complaining about too much of a police presence in their neighborhood and then roughly a year later the same group would be complaining that the police have abandoned them.
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            I'm sure it happens. It's not clear to me that it's the norm.
                            I know it's just anecdotal, but several nights ago, in my role as police chaplain, I tried to comfort a woman whose 'child' (a 17 year old) died of a drug overdose earlier that day.

                            She didn't remember me from our last encounter just over a year prior where she screamed and cussed at me and several other officers because this same son had been arrested for possession of marijuana, and "don't you [vile cuss words] cops have anything better to do than harass kids - don't you got real crime to tend to?" She went on to rant about how we should keep our [more vile cuss words] 'backsides' out of her neighborhood.

                            The drugs that killed him came mostly from her own medicine cabinet.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              I know it's just anecdotal, but several nights ago, in my role as police chaplain, I tried to comfort a woman whose 'child' (a 17 year old) died of a drug overdose earlier that day.

                              She didn't remember me from our last encounter just over a year prior where she screamed and cussed at me and several other officers because this same son had been arrested for possession of marijuana, and "don't you [vile cuss words] cops have anything better to do than harass kids - don't you got real crime to tend to?" She went on to rant about how we should keep our [more vile cuss words] 'backsides' out of her neighborhood.

                              The drugs that killed him came mostly from her own medicine cabinet.
                              It is anecdotal...and sad...
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                It is anecdotal...and sad...
                                What's even more sad, our Sheriff, recently deceased, once told me, with sadness, "I'm arresting the grandchildren of people I arrested 40 years ago".
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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