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  • #16
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    To answer your question about Christians: In high school, my youth group leader said something to the effect of taking care of the environment didn't matter because Jesus would come back before it got too bad. Chiliastic viewpoints are probably one big reason.
    Didn't you read the verses that taught us to take care of the earth until we got close to the end?
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
      Didn't you read the verses that taught us to take care of the earth until we got close to the end?
      You mean when God destroys the earth?
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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      • #18
        The thing that surprises me is that protecting the environment should be something that cuts across ideological/cultural/ethical lines. From the perspective of a conservative, not trashing the place is conservative. From a liberal perspective, the poor are typically hit hardest by environmental degradation. From a market fan's perspective, pollution lowers the value of air, water, and land for everyone, and so represents a market failure. There are a large number of ethical and moral issues tied up in all of the above.

        So this should be something we've come together on. Yet, since the Carter years, we've pretty much failed (at least in the US). It's rather depressing.
        "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

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        • #19
          Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
          The thing that surprises me is that protecting the environment should be something that cuts across ideological/cultural/ethical lines. From the perspective of a conservative, not trashing the place is conservative.
          Absolutely agreed.

          From a liberal perspective, the poor are typically hit hardest by environmental degradation. From a market fan's perspective, pollution lowers the value of air, water, and land for everyone, and so represents a market failure. There are a large number of ethical and moral issues tied up in all of the above.

          So this should be something we've come together on. Yet, since the Carter years, we've pretty much failed (at least in the US). It's rather depressing.
          Personally, I think because there's a perception (right or wrong) that the regulators go way overboard, and use "the environment" to land grab and control. And, since you mentioned Carter, the snail darter controversy comes to mind.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Absolutely agreed.



            Personally, I think because there's a perception (right or wrong) that the regulators go way overboard, and use "the environment" to land grab and control. And, since you mentioned Carter, the snail darter controversy comes to mind.
            yeah using "saving the environment" as a club to force through pet projects and legislation.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              yeah using "saving the environment" as a club to force through pet projects and legislation.
              It's kind of like the whole "pay taxes" issue to help poor people -- I help them because I want to, not because I'm forced by the government to.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                It's kind of like the whole "pay taxes" issue to help poor people -- I help them because I want to, not because I'm forced by the government to.
                Well, that's just a "downside" of living in a democratic society. All of us see our taxes used in ways we'd prefer they weren't, along with various ways we're pleased they are.
                "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                  We made way too many messes and were mean to each other and to the "pets". Why did we do this? Why were some Christians in the past terrible stewards of God's creation? I think the environmentalists might go a little far, but they do have a point in that we should take care of our resources in a responsible manner. And not be needlessly mean to other people and animals.
                  I agree. There have been cultural mindsets in the past that were part of the European Christian culture that were very abusive of the environment and the native peoples of various newly discovered countries. But I think it would be a mistake to blame Christianity itself for those issues. It's more a matter of a failure of those that were Christians at the time to allow God to direct their understanding in these areas away from what was part of their overarching cultural lattice and toward what Christ and the Bible actally teach.

                  It is very hard sometimes to disconnect from the culture in which we are embedded. Perhaps even more so if that culture call's itself a "Christian Culture" and in many ways has laws and conventions based at least in part on Christ's teachings.


                  Jim
                  Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-10-2018, 02:17 PM.
                  My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                  If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                  This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                    No. The human species as a whole! Because the human species as a whole was supposed to take care of things. That's what Adam was told anyways. There weren't any Christians back when a lot of animals were eaten into extinction.
                    Mauritian tortoises.
                    I do wonder whether there were any "Christians" that supported practices of poor stewardship. I have no clue if that happened or not. I really don't like that some people could claim to be Christians and then not act like it.
                    It happened. Many species have been driven to extinction following settlement by Christian invaders with weapons and pets, including the passenger pigeon, various island tortoises, Tasmanian tigers, various wallabies, large sea cows, various Caribbean rodents, island wrens and Falkland wolves.

                    The Christian beliefs that no species had ever gone extinct, that animals exist for the use of man, and that it doesn't matter what we do because Jesus is returning soon are all partly to blame.
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Roy View Post
                      Mauritian tortoises.It happened. Many species have been driven to extinction following settlement by Christian invaders with weapons and pets, including the passenger pigeon, various island tortoises, Tasmanian tigers, various wallabies, large sea cows, various Caribbean rodents, island wrens and Falkland wolves.

                      The Christian beliefs that no species had ever gone extinct, that animals exist for the use of man, and that it doesn't matter what we do because Jesus is returning soon are all partly to blame.
                      It's a human problem, not a problem with Christianity. I heard that people didn't know they were eating too many passenger pigeons until it was too late. And I was referring to ancient megafauna like woolly mammoths and giant sloths.
                      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Roy View Post
                        Mauritian tortoises.It happened. Many species have been driven to extinction following settlement by Christian invaders with weapons and pets, including the passenger pigeon, various island tortoises, Tasmanian tigers, various wallabies, large sea cows, various Caribbean rodents, island wrens and Falkland wolves.

                        The Christian beliefs that no species had ever gone extinct, that animals exist for the use of man, and that it doesn't matter what we do because Jesus is returning soon are all partly to blame.
                        The highlighted elements are not 'Christian' beliefs. In fact, if anything they are contrary to Christ's teachings and the Bible's teachings. One of the fundamental pieces of Christian thought that often gets overlooked in the Conservative Christian world is that WE, all of us, are sinful beings, selfish beings, and that to follow Christ means to DIE to those elements as much as possible, and that sin itself, our selfish desires and wants, are DECEITFUL. That is, that we end up following them at least half the time even when we are trying not to! What I have highlighted boils down to nothing more than religious arrogance of the sort Jesus preached against to the point it was the major contributing factor in motivating the religious leaders of His time to seek His elimination(crucifixion).

                        Jim
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          The highlighted elements are not 'Christian' beliefs.
                          They are beliefs held by some Christians (and only by Christians), based solely on their religion. Just as animals that live in Australia (and only in Australia), that evolved in Australia and cannot survive elsewhere, are Australian animals.

                          It doesn't matter whether beliefs are contrary to the Bible, contrary to Jesus's teachings, or contrary to the views of the majority of Christians; if beliefs are held only by Christians and are based so clearly in religion that they would never be held by non-Christians, then those beliefs are Christian beliefs.
                          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Roy View Post
                            They are beliefs held by some Christians (and only by Christians), based solely on their religion. Just as animals that live in Australia (and only in Australia), that evolved in Australia and cannot survive elsewhere, are Australian animals.

                            It doesn't matter whether beliefs are contrary to the Bible, contrary to Jesus's teachings, or contrary to the views of the majority of Christians; if beliefs are held only by Christians and are based so clearly in religion that they would never be held by non-Christians, then those beliefs are Christian beliefs.
                            Idiots that claim to be Christians. Being a terrible steward isn't being a good Christian. And I need sources that those explorers were indeed Christians and not merely pew warmers.
                            If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Roy View Post
                              They are beliefs held by some Christians (and only by Christians), based solely on their religion. Just as animals that live in Australia (and only in Australia), that evolved in Australia and cannot survive elsewhere, are Australian animals.

                              It doesn't matter whether beliefs are contrary to the Bible, contrary to Jesus's teachings, or contrary to the views of the majority of Christians; if beliefs are held only by Christians and are based so clearly in religion that they would never be held by non-Christians, then those beliefs are Christian beliefs.
                              Animals that live in Australia cannot survive elsewhere? Say WHAT?
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                Animals that live in Australia cannot survive elsewhere? Say WHAT?
                                Put a kangaroo in Antarctica and see how long it lasts!!!

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