So I occasionally wander to another theology forum, and found this encouraging from one of their resident atheists,
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5 Reasons an Atheist Changed His Mind About Religion
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So what did he change his mind to?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostIt's listed in the first post.
Edited to add: NVM, I guess the fifth item more clearly suggests s/he returned to Christianity.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI guess I'm missing it. The post seems to say s/he changed his/her mind abour religion, and the 3rd item suggests a return to Christianity or Judaism. Do you know if it was one of those, or just a general change in perspective about religions? Maybe s/he thought they were all bad or something?
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5- Many of my foundational arguments were much weaker than I had suspected. was initially convinced that the Bible was plagiarised from Pagan myths, filled with scientific errors (true) and bad morality. Whilst I never outright denied the existence of Jesus (nor did I believe the Catholic Church taught the Earth was flat or that Hitler was motivated by Christianity, or that Christianity was unevocqually pro-slavery), I did believe elements of his story were taken from earlier pagan deities such as Mithras and Krishna (I was aware that the Horus stuff was a load of BS however). I later of course discovered this was completely wrong.
I agree with this. Too many atheists I listen to are not really all that versed in history or theology, and take on some very odd positions as a consequence.
I have not met too many atheists that think they have the "monopoly" on truth. Indeed, this is often a claim I hear from some theists, who claim a kind of inerrant knowledge that is biblically inspired or god-inspired. Most atheists that I know of are fairly heavily science-focused, and if they know their science, they know that "truth" is not an absolute thing.
3- I do see evidence for some form of design. I find it hard to see how the laws which govern the universe could have came about through naturalism.
I have never found the argument from design compelling. It tends to presuppose its conclusion. "Order" does not required an orderer. The universe exhibits a degree of order because of the natural laws under which it functions. These natural laws are the "nature" of the universe - they describe it. They did not "come about" in some fashion. In a sense, just as the nature of god is said to be intrinsic to god, the nature of the universe is intrinsic to the universe. We seek to discover and understand them, much as Christians seek to discover and understand the nature of their god. Different methodologies, of course, but a similar goal.
I'm not sure this is true either. Islam has an explanation for creation (https://www.islamreligion.com/articl...create-part-1/), and so do many other religions. I'm not sure why the writer thinks this is unique to Christianity and/or Judaism.
There is no question that Christianity was (and is) the dominant force in Europe and the Americas. The Christian ethics has framed much of modern social ethics. A lot of that framing has been good - some not so much. As Christianity is giving way to a more secular population, ethics and morality are going through a change. Change usually comes with some amount of discomfort and pain. I look at the way our young people today are standing up for the disenfranchised, helping the poor, fighting for equal rights for all people, and I think the future is going to be in good hands. I do not see any more or less chaos than we have had in the past.
An atheist responds...Last edited by carpedm9587; 01-11-2018, 02:07 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostHuh. I thought his post was pretty clear. The post indicates that he essentially went from a hardcore sort of "New" Atheist who found religious ideas ignorant and occasionally evil, to one that found a lot of his initial ideas about religion incorrect. That religious people can have good reasons for accepting the views they accept, and that some religions even seem self-consistent (even if he believes them untrue). The third item doesn't at all suggest to me a return to Christianity or Judaism, rather it suggests that he sees good reason for some people to embrace views that are not bound by strict naturalism. So, he may be agnostic on that particular point, but not so agnostic on other points that he'd consider himself an agnostic or theist. Perhaps he leans towards some sort of virtual simulation theory like Starlight does. But either way, he seems to be saying "Hey, I get why you believe in a higher power, even if that's not for me".The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post5- Many of my foundational arguments were much weaker than I had suspected. was initially convinced that the Bible was plagiarised from Pagan myths, filled with scientific errors (true) and bad morality. Whilst I never outright denied the existence of Jesus (nor did I believe the Catholic Church taught the Earth was flat or that Hitler was motivated by Christianity, or that Christianity was unevocqually pro-slavery), I did believe elements of his story were taken from earlier pagan deities such as Mithras and Krishna (I was aware that the Horus stuff was a load of BS however). I later of course discovered this was completely wrong.
I agree with this. Too many atheists I listen to are not really all that versed in history or theology, and take on some very odd positions as a consequence.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
I have not met too many atheists that think they have the "monopoly" on truth. Indeed, this is often a claim I hear from some theists, who claim a kind of inerrant knowledge that is biblically inspired or god-inspired. Most atheists that I know of are fairly heavily science-focused, and if they know their science, they know that "truth" is not an absolute thing.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post3- I do see evidence for some form of design. I find it hard to see how the laws which govern the universe could have came about through naturalism.
I have never found the argument from design compelling. It tends to presuppose its conclusion. "Order" does not required an order. The universe exhibits a degree of order because of the natural laws under which it functions. These natural laws are the "nature" of the universe - they describe it. They did not "come about" in some fashion. In a sense, just as the nature of god is said to be intrinsic to god, the nature of the universe is intrinsic to the universe. We seek to discover and understand them, much as Christians seek to discover and understand the nature of their god. Different methodologies, of course, but a similar goal.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
I'm not sure this is true either. Islam has an explanation for creation (https://www.islamreligion.com/articl...create-part-1/), and so do many other religions. I'm not sure why the writer thnks this is unique to Christianity and Judaism.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
There is no question that Christianity was (and is) the dominant force in Europe and the Americas. The Christian ethics has framed much of modern social ethics. As Christianity is giving way to a more secular population, ethics and morality are going through a change. Change usually comes with some amount of discomfort and pain. I look at the way our young people today are standing up for the disenfranchised, helping the poor, fighting for equal rights for all people, and I think the future is going to be in good hands. I do not see any more or less chaos than we have had in the past.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAn atheist responds...
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostBasically Carpe, he is saying he turned from JimL into you.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostUnfortunately, I've met far too many atheists like that. Some even here. On a popular level, you definitely get this impression from people like Dawkins, and even moreso Alex Rosenberg who defends "scientism" as the only basis of truth. I agree, though, that there are theists, too, who hold similar views.
Originally posted by Adrift View PostYeah, this is the common rebuttal one often hears to teleological arguments. I'm pretty sure this is the atheist philosopher Michael Ruse' objection to teleological arguments. It's just not a very convincing argument, I don't think. A number of atheists are abandoning it to views like the one I mentioned that Starlight holds...that the design of the universe points to....something, and that that something might be some sort of virtual simulation.
Originally posted by Adrift View PostPerhaps he finds the Judeo/Christian conception more self-consistent, less ad-hoc (for a religion anyways). Have you read Walton's Lost World? Good book. If not, you should add it to your list.
I'll add it - but thus one goes to the BOTTOM of the list!
Originally posted by Adrift View PostI really wish more people understood how dominate Christianity framed modern Western social ethics, because that seems to be lost on SOOO many atheists I've read/debated.
And I think religions have a role to play for some time to come, frankly.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI have found the "virtual simluation" discussion interesting, at least philosophically.
But it seems to me to inevitably lead to the "turtles all the way down" problem.
But I think it's extremely presumptive to assume that there is not allowed to be anything between the First Cause and our universe coming into existence, the way most theists are prone to do.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThere is no question that Christianity was (and is) the dominant force in Europe and the Americas. The Christian ethics has framed much of modern social ethics. A lot of that framing has been good - some not so much. As Christianity is giving way to a more secular population, ethics and morality are going through a change. Change usually comes with some amount of discomfort and pain. I look at the way our young people today are standing up for the disenfranchised, helping the poor, fighting for equal rights for all people, and I think the future is going to be in good hands. I do not see any more or less chaos than we have had in the past."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
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