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Should Trump Resign Over "Hellhole" Comment?

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  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Yes, you're right. There are some parts of Haiti that are pure hellholes, and parts I would never walk through without an armed escort.

    But then the same is true of pretty much any country. Parts of the U.S., are beautiful. Then there are parts that are hellholes I would not walk through without an armed escort.
    So, your "Haiti IS a beautiful country" is a bit overly optimistic.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      So, your "Haiti IS a beautiful country" is a bit overly optimistic.
      A lot of Caribbean countries are like that. Paradises to outsiders visiting the resorts, and poor, starving hellholes inland where the people actually live.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        A lot of Caribbean countries are like that. Paradises to outsiders visiting the resorts, and poor, starving hellholes inland where the people actually live.
        Yeah, we worked on one side of the mountains, and only once during one of my trips did we visit Club Med. You'd swear it couldn't possibly be the same island.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          It was just a curious slip up is all, and Stephanopolous jumping in with a save was curious as well. It clearly spooked him that Obama might have admitted something he shouldn't have. Personally, I don't have any opinion one way or the other about what religion Obama might be. He's no longer president, thank God, so it's largely irrelevant at this point.
          That doesn't make sense though. What is it a slip up of? Had Obama said instead (as you seem to think he intended), "you’re absolutely right that John McCain has not talked about my Christian faith" what would that have meant? Who was accusing Obama of being a Christian in some negative sense?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            That doesn't make sense though. What is it a slip up of? Had Obama said instead (as you seem to think he intended), "you’re absolutely right that John McCain has not talked about my Christian faith" what would that have meant? Who was accusing Obama of being a Christian in some negative sense?
            If Obama had done 'air quotes' around his "my Muslim faith" comment, Stephanopolous wouldn't have had to jump in, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              If Obama had done 'air quotes' around his "my Muslim faith" comment, Stephanopolous wouldn't have had to jump in, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
              I don't know how else it could have been intended other than mental air quotes though, because that perfectly fits the context of the discussion. It makes absolutely no sense at all for Obama to have intended "my Christian faith". No one was attacking Obama for being a Christian, they were attacking him for probably being a Muslim, which he was asserting he was not.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                I don't know how else it could have been intended other than mental air quotes though, because that perfectly fits the context of the discussion. It makes absolutely no sense at all for Obama to have intended "my Christian faith". No one was attacking Obama for being a Christian, they were attacking him for probably being a Muslim, which he was asserting he was not.
                But I think it was complicated by Stephie rushing in there to correct him, assuming he knew better than Obama what Obama was talking about. Another point - Obama excelled at making public speeches, particularly with a teleprompter, but "live interviews" were not his strength.

                I can't think of another public figure who was so charismatic in speeches, and such a goofus in one-on-ones.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  But I think it was complicated by Stephie rushing in there to correct him, assuming he knew better than Obama what Obama was talking about. Another point - Obama excelled at making public speeches, particularly with a teleprompter, but "live interviews" were not his strength.

                  I can't think of another public figure who was so charismatic in speeches, and such a goofus in one-on-ones.
                  I don't know anything about that. I didn't bother paying much attention to his one-on-one interviews. He always seemed like an intelligent speaker to me (much more so than Bush or Trump). He even seemed to do fine in this particular interview. It seemed like Stephanopoulos was talking all over him though, and wouldn't give me a chance to simply spit a full sentence out without getting interrupted again. Stephanopoulos seemed much more interested in the next question he was going to ask Obama than Obama's answers. He clearly wasn't following Obama's train-of-thought, and what Obama said is a perfectly fine way of saying "Ok, you're right that McCain hasn't personally been accusing me of being a Muslim". "My Muslim faith" seemed obviously mentally surrounded in quotation marks.

                  I don't care about Obama. I didn't vote for the guy, and I definitely have no reason to defend him. He seemed generally likeable and intelligent, but I also think there was plenty not to like about him policy-wise. It's just that bipartisanship sees people picking apart the other side for the smallest, most inconsequential soundbites, and then spinning them as though there were some great meaning packed into them. You see it all the time with how people pull apart every single thing that Trump says. Trump is a braggart real estate broker from the East Coast. Hyperbole comes as naturally to him as breathing. That people aren't able, or aren't willing to tell when he's exaggerating for effect, when he's clearly and obviously doing so, is weird to see. When people pick apart every single thing presidents say looking for ways to spin it, it comes off as the boy who cried wolf. A bit of charity will go a long way, but people on the other side of the aisle can't afford charity, because it doesn't work for their own agenda. If you're on the outside looking in, it's really just super ugly. Wish people would stop doing it.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    So, your "Haiti IS a beautiful country" is a bit overly optimistic.
                    Yes - it was too broad. So too is the statement, "the United States is a beautiful country." In general, in both cases, it is true, but every country has its ugly spots.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      A lot of Caribbean countries are like that. Paradises to outsiders visiting the resorts, and poor, starving hellholes inland where the people actually live.
                      Actually, that characterization is too extreme. I have lived/worked in both Haiti and Jamaica. Resorts are built in the most beautiful spots, usually on the water, it is true. But the rural areas are likewise beautiful, though impoverished. The roads tend to be dirt. The homes tend to be huts. But many of these areas are beautiful, as are the people. I lived with them in "Above Rocks" (north of Kingston in the hill country) for several months, and taught in the local school. The poverty was real. But there is no way I would ever describe the area as a "hellhole," and it was representative of most of rural Jamaica. The truly ugly parts of both countries tend to be in the suburban areas around the main metro centers. There are exceptions, of course, but this image of both countries as "beautiful in the resorts, ugly everywhere else" is simply false.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        If Obama had done 'air quotes' around his "my Muslim faith" comment, Stephanopolous wouldn't have had to jump in, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
                        Or, if Stephanopolous had let him finish his sentence, he would have understood what Obama was saying (which you said in a later post that I just read... )
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          Actually, that characterization is too extreme. I have lived/worked in both Haiti and Jamaica. Resorts are built in the most beautiful spots, usually on the water, it is true. But the rural areas are likewise beautiful, though impoverished. The roads tend to be dirt. The homes tend to be huts. But many of these areas are beautiful, as are the people. I lived with them in "Above Rocks" (north of Kingston in the hill country) for several months, and taught in the local school. The poverty was real. But there is no way I would ever describe the area as a "hellhole," and it was representative of most of rural Jamaica. The truly ugly parts of both countries tend to be in the suburban areas around the main metro centers. There are exceptions, of course, but this image of both countries as "beautiful in the resorts, ugly everywhere else" is simply false.
                          well I was using "hellhole" as a comparison to the living conditions on the coastal resorts. The difference is staggering. I was not disparaging the people.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            Actually, that characterization is too extreme. I have lived/worked in both Haiti and Jamaica. Resorts are built in the most beautiful spots, usually on the water, it is true. But the rural areas are likewise beautiful, though impoverished. The roads tend to be dirt. The homes tend to be huts. But many of these areas are beautiful, as are the people. I lived with them in "Above Rocks" (north of Kingston in the hill country) for several months, and taught in the local school. The poverty was real. But there is no way I would ever describe the area as a "hellhole," and it was representative of most of rural Jamaica. The truly ugly parts of both countries tend to be in the suburban areas around the main metro centers. There are exceptions, of course, but this image of both countries as "beautiful in the resorts, ugly everywhere else" is simply false.
                            I think you're taking this a little too literally. Detroit is a hellhole, but I love hanging out there. Just because there are plenty of places in Detroit that are not out and out hellish, and just because there are plenty of people who are kind and wonderful, doesn't make the place any less a hellhole. Typically when we refer to "hellholes", we're contrasting the extremes of two places. America is not a hellhole compared to a place like Haiti, nor is Detroit a hellhole compared to say, Sao Paulo, but Detroit is a hellhole compared to most American cities, and America may be a hellhole for someone from, say...I don't know...Iceland? It's relative, but people usually know what exaggerated language like that means in normal conversation. This is sort of what I was talking about in my post above.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                              I think you're taking this a little too literally. Detroit is a hellhole, but I love hanging out there. Just because there are plenty of places in Detroit that are not out and out hellish, and just because there are plenty of people who are kind and wonderful, doesn't make the place any less a hellhole. Typically when we refer to "hellholes", we're contrasting the extremes of two places. America is not a hellhole compared to a place like Haiti, nor is Detroit a hellhole compared to say, Sao Paulo, but Detroit is a hellhole compared to most American cities, and America may be a hellhole for someone from, say...I don't know...Iceland? It's relative, but people usually know what exaggerated language like that means in normal conversation. This is sort of what I was talking about in my post above.
                              To both you and Sparko - I don't share your lack of concern for the use of language. I think it leaves an impression with people who do not know any better - who have never traveled outside the U.S. and have no framework for comparison. I hear descriptions of places I have actually been to from people who have never left their town, state, or country that are WAY off the mark, and are simply ignorant. Then they argue for policies on the basis of these broad descriptions.

                              I think it also does harm to countries who depend, to some degree, on tourism to the more beautiful areas. While I think O'Brien's characterization was likewise overly simplistic, it at least has the benefit of enticing some people to visit and spend their dollars on the island. That helps the local economy - though not as much as it would if most of those resorts weren't owned by international corporations that take the profits odff the island. At least, however, it provides employment for many of the local people.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                Yes - it was too broad. So too is the statement,
                                muchly

                                "the United States is a beautiful country."
                                Who made that statement?

                                In general, in both cases, it is true, but every country has its ugly spots.
                                To the same degree? I don't understand why you have to do this. Haiti is quite clearly the poorest country in the western hemisphere. They share an island with the Dominican Republic, and a lot of the same history, yet Haiti has not flourished anywhere near its neighbor.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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