Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Should Trump Resign Over "Hellhole" Comment?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Several people in the meeting have gone on record to say the President never used that language, and Trump himself has denied it. Graham wasn't even in the meeting, and Tricky Dick is a liar. Period.
    Where are you getting this "Graham wasn't even in the meeting" nonsense. Graham went to the meeting with Durbin, they entered together and were surprised to see other members there that they weren't expecting. Graham has admitted to giving the President a piece of his mind so to speak after hearing the Presidents racist comments. So, where are you getting this nonsense that Graham wasn't there?

    And btw, the 2 Senators denying it, only one, Perdue, says he never said it, the other, Cotton, simply says he didn't hear it. But they both, when first asked about it, didn't aver that he didn't say it, they simply said they didn't hear it. Common sense will tell you that is BS. There's no "i didn't hear it", if they were at the meeting, then they know whether he said it or not, which means they are once again lying to protect their lying leader.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Dimbulb View Post
      What happened earlier in the thread was you made the utterly bizarre claim that "basically accurate" meant not accurate and people rolled their eyes and corrected you. I don't know why you're obsessed with being wrong about what language means.


      Pay attention, kiddo: Several people, including the President himself, have gone on record to say that the President never used that language, so what does "basically accurate" mean in this context? Because it certainly doesn't mean "accurate".
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        Several people, including the President himself, have gone on record to say that the President never used that language
        At this stage, Trump is such a thoroughly proven compulsive liar that I consider him denying something to be an indication that it is probably true.

        so what does "basically accurate" mean in this context?
        It means accurate. Trump is a liar. A couple of Republicans are lying to cover for him. Everyone else - i.e. the remainder of the Republicans there and all the democrats, are being honest.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
          Of course that depends on what you mean by "percentage-wise," and what you mean by "top 1%."
          I think the terms are pretty clear. The reduction in percentage of taxes paid is greater at the top than it is at the bottom. The top 1% refers to the top 1% of income levels in the counttry, since taxes are based on annual income - not on accumulated wealth.

          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
          I think a lot of that sort of weirdness had to do with the fact that they were operating under their crazy Senate rules. In particular, I think the "Byrd Rule" was a factor. They were working under the "Budget Reconciliation" process, rather than "normal" rules, so there was no need for a filibuster-proof super-majority, but the consequence was that they had to finagle, defer, and delay.
          Yes, this I know.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
            Yeah, I'm becoming less and less content with the two tribe system myself, but I also believe that one of the two is far more corrupt in their serving the interests of the wealthy and corporations rather than the best interests of the Country as a whole. That would be the republican party of course. So, so long as we do have a two party system, for the good of the country, we need the democrat party to be the majority party
            Of course, they believe the Democratic party is the most corrupt of parties...and round and round it goes.

            Originally posted by JimL View Post
            Yep, no longer sure that a two party system is the best way to accomplish that though.
            So what do you propose as an alternative?
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              Of course, they believe the Democratic party is the most corrupt of parties...and round and round it goes.
              Well one side has more objective evidence in support of their view than the other. Reality exists, and so two people who think the other party is more corrupt than theirs cannot both be right. Noting both sides say this suggests that one side likely has a severe disconnection from reality.

              So what do you propose as an alternative?
              It is difficult for a multi-party system to thrive in a plurality voting system. My country and others have managed to move beyond two-parties by changing away from a plurality based voting system.

              I would suggest an STV (aka "FairVote") system would be best for the US, as individual states could implement it legislatively rather than a federal constitutional change being required (which seems impractical). In an STV voting system everyone would rank as many congressional candidates (1, 2, 3...) as they wished according to preference, and the math algorithm spits out the set of most-preferred candidates who then become the elected congress-people for that state. Same for Senators. The math algorithm gives even better and more representative results if you group existing congressional districts together in chunks of about 3, and so you then elect 3 congress-people all of whom represent the larger district.

              Preference-based voting allows people to rank someone outside the 2 parties as their first choice (and second, and third etc if they wish), and then rank their preferred candidate within the two parties as their final choice, safe in the knowledge that their vote "counts" and they are not "throwing it away", because as the algorithm parses their vote and determines that their first choice is simply not a viable candidate because that person hasn't received enough votes it will go to their 2nd choice and reinterpret their vote as a vote for that person.

              Obviously prior to computers such sophisticated voting systems weren't viable, but now they are trivial to implement. Here we use that voting system for local elections (we use a different one that is IMO worse for general elections and which would require a US federal constitutional change to implement I think) and in Australia they use that system for federal Senate elections. Changing election systems instantly increased the number of parties in my country - previously (1993 election) it had been 2 parties with a few independents and it instantly (1996 election) went to 6 parties with representation (and the 2017 election was unusual because a couple of minor parties got no seats giving us only 4 main parties and 1 independent - 3 of those parties are now working together to govern).
              Last edited by Starlight; 01-15-2018, 07:01 PM.
              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
                Where are you getting this "Graham wasn't even in the meeting" nonsense. Graham went to the meeting with Durbin, they entered together and were surprised to see other members there that they weren't expecting. Graham has admitted to giving the President a piece of his mind so to speak after hearing the Presidents racist comments. So, where are you getting this nonsense that Graham wasn't there?
                Fair enough. I recall reading somewhere that Graham's comments were based on what an aide had told him, which made me think he hadn't attended the meeting, but it seems I was mistaken. Still, it's not as straightforward as you're making it out to be:

                Source: Breitbart

                Graham — who referred to countries from which illegal aliens were fleeing as “hellholes” at a Senate hearing in 2013 — said Thursday: “Following comments by the President, I said my piece directly to him yesterday. The President and all those attending the meeting know what I said and how I feel.”

                Notably, Graham did not actually repeat Durbin’s incendiary claims, but rather that he “appreciate[d] Senator Durbin’s statements.”

                http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...aham-shithole/

                © Copyright Original Source


                Now here's Senator David Perdue: "I’m telling you he did not use that word, George. And I’m telling you it’s a gross misrepresentation."

                Homeland Security Secretary Kerstjen Nielsen: "It was an impassioned conversation, I don’t recall that specific phrase being used."

                Senator Perdue and Senator Tom Cotton released a joint statement saying, "In regards to Senator Durbin’s accusation, we do not recall the President saying these comments specifically..."

                Then, of course, the President himself: "The language used by me at the DACA meeting was tough, but this was not the language used."

                So that's four people, including the President, who say he didn't use that language or that they didn't hear him use it. Contrast that with Graham's weaselly "essentially accurate" (but not really) comment, and Tricky Dick Durbin's appalling reputation with this sort of thing, and any reasonable person would conclude that Trump never said it.

                It's like the Russian collusion narrative all over again.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  Several people in the meeting have gone on record to say the President never used that language, and Trump himself has denied it. Graham wasn't even in the meeting, and Tricky Dick is a liar. Period.
                  What a joke! In fact Dick Durbin, confirmed the remarks, saying Trump "said these hate-filled things and he said them repeatedly." Only two , Republican Sens. Tom Cotton and David Perdue, offered a modified version saying they "do not recall the President saying these comments specifically",which doesn't amount to a denial. So given Trump's history of racism and his history of lying, it's reasonable to assume that these offensive remarks were make. They fit what we know of this president.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    Fair enough. I recall reading somewhere that Graham's comments were based on what an aide had told him, which made me think he hadn't attended the meeting, but it seems I was mistaken. Still, it's not as straightforward as you're making it out to be:

                    Source: Breitbart

                    Graham — who referred to countries from which illegal aliens were fleeing as “hellholes” at a Senate hearing in 2013 — said Thursday: “Following comments by the President, I said my piece directly to him yesterday. The President and all those attending the meeting know what I said and how I feel.”

                    Notably, Graham did not actually repeat Durbin’s incendiary claims, but rather that he “appreciate[d] Senator Durbin’s statements.”

                    http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...aham-shithole/

                    © Copyright Original Source


                    Now here's Senator David Perdue: "I’m telling you he did not use that word, George. And I’m telling you it’s a gross misrepresentation."

                    Homeland Security Secretary Kerstjen Nielsen: "It was an impassioned conversation, I don’t recall that specific phrase being used."

                    Senator Perdue and Senator Tom Cotton released a joint statement saying, "In regards to Senator Durbin’s accusation, we do not recall the President saying these comments specifically..."

                    Then, of course, the President himself: "The language used by me at the DACA meeting was tough, but this was not the language used."

                    So that's four people, including the President, who say he didn't use that language or that they didn't hear him use it. Contrast that with Graham's weaselly "essentially accurate" (but not really) comment, and Tricky Dick Durbin's appalling reputation with this sort of thing, and any reasonable person would conclude that Trump never said it.

                    It's like the Russian collusion narrative all over again.
                    Apparently you have difficulty with reading comprehension or arithmatic or both. In the above citings, you have only 1 person who emphatically states that Trump never said what Durbin accused him of, and he only said it after first saying he didn't recall Trump saying it. The other 3, Trump doesn't count, we all know he's an inveterate liar already, all simply said we don't recall the President saying it. So, again, that they all just can't recall, we all know is is just nonsense, and if you believe that they just can't recall, then I have some swamp land down here in Florida for sale i can sell to you on the cheap. Interested?
                    Last edited by JimL; 01-15-2018, 08:20 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Trump: "Senator Dicky Durbin totally misrepresented what was said at the DACA meeting. Deals can’t get made when there is no trust! Durbin blew DACA and is hurting our Military."
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        Fair enough. I recall reading somewhere that Graham's comments were based on what an aide had told him, which made me think he hadn't attended the meeting, but it seems I was mistaken.
                        Maybe you were confusing Graham with Paul Ryan?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          Maybe you were confusing Graham with Paul Ryan?
                          That's possible.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Please show where the White House apologized for providing him with misinformation. All I can find from both liberal and conservative news sources is that they officially denied his claim not that they were the source for his erroneous claim.
                            Wishful thinking for it to go away without references. Senator Graham confirmed Senator Durbin's account of the meeting, and even confronted Trump in the meeting concerning his racist degrading remarks.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • Trump is an unreliable source. Senator Graham confirmed Senator Durbin's account of the meeting, and even confronted Trump in the meeting concerning his racist degrading remarks.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post


                                Pay attention, kiddo: Several people, including the President himself, have gone on record to say that the President never used that language, so what does "basically accurate" mean in this context? Because it certainly doesn't mean "accurate".
                                Yes it does, you are also missing the full comments made by Senator Graham concerning the comments.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, 03-27-2024, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                155 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                400 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                114 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                198 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                373 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X