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Thread: Is The Bible Literally True?

  1. #11
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    You're missing the point. Theologians were sure that was what he meant because they were taking what he said in an overly literal manner.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    You're by far the worst poster on TWeb -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

  2. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  3. #12
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Hyperbole. Also, the Roman Empire WAS 'the world' in the figurative sense.

  4. #13
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Hyperbole. Also, the Roman Empire WAS 'the world' in the figurative sense.
    This kinda leads into a discussion concerning the use of "all" in the Bible and just how literally it should be taken.

    For example, during the account of the Flood itself we read that all flesh had become corrupted; yet the text also says that Noah was a "righteous man, blameless in his time." Thus, "all flesh" doesn’t mean all flesh since there was at least one exception. All does not mean all.

    Likewise, Gen 3:20 pronounces Eve as "the mother of all living." Literally, that means that all life originated from a human woman, Eve, which nobody contends is the case.

    Are there other instances when "all" does not literally mean "all"? Definitely.

    "Moreover, all the earth came to Egypt to Joseph to buy grain, because the famine was severe over all the earth" (Genesis 41:57). Did starving Australian Aborigines come to Joseph seeking food? How about Inuits? Similarly, the famine predicted by Agabus that "took place in the days of Claudius" was said to have occurred "over all the world" (Acts 11:28).

    "And the fame of David went out into all lands, and the Lord brought the fear of him upon all nations" (I Chronicles 14:17). Apparently American Indians were quaking in fear at David’s reputation. But then they were apparently consoled when Solomon’s reign began because now "the whole earth sought the presence of Solomon to hear his wisdom" (I Kings 19:11).

    "And horses were imported for Solomon from Egypt and from all lands"(II Chronicles 9:28).

    "All the kings of the earth sought the presence of Solomon, to hear his wisdom." (II Chronicles 9:23) – does this include rulers in the Americas as well?

    "In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be enrolled" (Lk 2:1). In this case "all the world" means only the Roman Empire.

    Likewise, when Cyrus declares in II Chronicles 36:23 that God "has given me all the kingdoms of the earth" he meant only the lands controlled by the Persian Empire.

    "For they covered the face of the whole earth, so that the land was darkened" (Exodus 10:15 – KJV), though verses 12, 14 make it clear that it meant only the land of Egypt and why some other versions choose to use "whole land" instead of "whole earth."

    Mark 1:5 tells us that "all the land of Judea" were baptized by John in the wilderness. Of course, we understand from the context that this does not literally mean every single human in the land of Judea.

    And Mark 4:34 says Jesus taught His disciples about "all things," but does anyone serious believe this included details of such things like space travel, advanced calculus and the sex life of sea slugs?

    These are only a few examples illustrating the fact that all does not always literally mean all.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    You're by far the worst poster on TWeb -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

  5. Amen Teallaura, Jedidiah, Leonhard amen'd this post.
  6. #14
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    I do wonder why why Irenaeus (mid 2nd century, so not particularly far removed) was so dogmatic about this.
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

  7. #15
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Romans 16:25-26, ". . . Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to[. . . εις . . .] all nations for the obedience of faith: . . ." The Greek meaning "into" all nations. Does not say all nations already have heard fully.
    This is the on going commandment.
    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    OK - Paul claimed that the gospel was made known in all the world (ROM 16), and was preached to every creature under heaven.

    So then - "made known" and "preached," being both aorist tense and indicative mood, show that the "preaching" and the "made known" happened prior to the time of writing.
    The arena is "all the world" and the target audience "every creature under heaven." That Paul didn't mean what he said doesn't seem to me a viable proposition - so to what can the apparent discrepancy be attributed?
    Literal reading of the text versus a literal misreading of the text.

    Romans 16:25-26, ". . . Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: . . ."

    Fact, what is past tense ". . . made manifest . . ." and ". . . made known . . ." was "by the scriptures of the prophets" and was explicitly "according to the commandment of the everlasting God" into "all nations." Can you prove this is not the case?
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  8. #16
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Literal reading of the text versus a literal misreading of the text.

    Romans 16:25-26, ". . . Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: . . ."

    Fact, what is past tense ". . . made manifest . . ." and ". . . made known . . ." was "by the scriptures of the prophets" and was explicitly "according to the commandment of the everlasting God" into "all nations." Can you prove this is not the case?
    Colossians 1:23 - της ελπιδος του ευαγγελιου ου ηκουσατε του κηρυχθεντος εν παση τη κτισει τη υπο τον ουρανον ... the hope of the gospel that you (pl) heard being proclaimed in all creation under heaven.

    Col 1:23 states that the Colossians heard the gospel being proclaimed - in all creation.

    But as Rogue notes (and as I have noted on a number of occasions) the pas, pasa, pan group (all) and holos (whole) are as likely to be sweeping generalisations as they are to be literally "all" or "the whole" without exception: quite often "all" could be interpreted as "too many," without damage to the intent.
    Nice list BTW, Rogue, much more extensive than my own has been. Though you might want to add the one about all the Sanhedrin voting to have Jesus put to death (Luke's account) - it isn't til somewhat later that he lists an exception (Joseph of Arimathea).
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  9. #17
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Colossians 1:23 - της ελπιδος του ευαγγελιου ου ηκουσατε του κηρυχθεντος εν παση τη κτισει τη υπο τον ουρανον ... the hope of the gospel that you (pl) heard being proclaimed in all creation under heaven.

    Col 1:23 states that the Colossians heard the gospel being proclaimed - in all creation.

    But as Rogue notes (and as I have noted on a number of occasions) the pas, pasa, pan group (all) and holos (whole) are as likely to be sweeping generalisations as they are to be literally "all" or "the whole" without exception: quite often "all" could be interpreted as "too many," without damage to the intent.
    Nice list BTW, Rogue, much more extensive than my own has been. Though you might want to add the one about all the Sanhedrin voting to have Jesus put to death (Luke's account) - it isn't til somewhat later that he lists an exception (Joseph of Arimathea).
    I already addressed this text.
    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Colossians 1:6, . . 23, ". . . Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth: . . . _ . . . If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature [. . . παση τη κτισει . . .] which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; . . ." Echoing obediance to the command in Mark 16:15, ". . . παση τη κτισει . . . ."
    The Apostle Paul qualified his doing this, saying, ". . . whereof I Paul am made a minister; . . ."
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  10. #18
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I take the bible as literally true in the sense that the authors were accurately reporting events as they actually happened, as far as they understood them. That doesn't mean that everything they reported on was literal. They reported Jesus speaking figuratively, for example. Or they told stories of visions. Or they reported what the LORD said, but the LORD could be using figurative language too.

    The Bible also contains books of poetry and songs and proverbs which are not literal.
    All the Bible is to be taken literally - and to do that properly, involves recognising that the texts belong to different literary genres, so that not everything can be taken as historical fact. The Lord of the Rings is all to be “taken literally”, but only a lunatic would take any of it as historical fact. So with much of the Bible. A lot of it uses mythological language, or is myth. OTOH, myth must not be confused with facts like the Resurrection - the Resurrection is “too real” to be mere history; it is more real than history, not less, like the invented tales of men.

  11. #19
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I do wonder why why Irenaeus (mid 2nd century, so not particularly far removed) was so dogmatic about this.
    I'm not sure what your question is. He was insistent that Christian teaching had spread throughout the whole world. What we don't know is what Irenaeus precisely meant by "the whole world" (or even the Greek words used, since almost all we have of AH is a rather barbaric Latin translation). However, it seems fairly clear from context that he meant the known world.
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  12. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  13. #20
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Colossians 1:23 - της ελπιδος του ευαγγελιου ου ηκουσατε του κηρυχθεντος εν παση τη κτισει τη υπο τον ουρανον ... the hope of the gospel that you (pl) heard being proclaimed in all creation under heaven.

    Col 1:23 states that the Colossians heard the gospel being proclaimed - in all creation.

    But as Rogue notes (and as I have noted on a number of occasions) the pas, pasa, pan group (all) and holos (whole) are as likely to be sweeping generalisations as they are to be literally "all" or "the whole" without exception: quite often "all" could be interpreted as "too many," without damage to the intent.
    Nice list BTW, Rogue, much more extensive than my own has been. Though you might want to add the one about all the Sanhedrin voting to have Jesus put to death (Luke's account) - it isn't til somewhat later that he lists an exception (Joseph of Arimathea).
    Another use of “all”: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...4&version=NASB

    How is that use of “all” to be understood ?
    Or the “all/every” in 2 Tim. 3.16: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...3&version=NASB ?

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