Is The Bible Literally True?

[Teallaura]

God has attributes in the Bible. One of his attributes is just according to Hebrews 6:10. So how can God be just and command to kill infants in 1 Samuel 15:3? God cannot be just and order to infants.

Er, wait, you are actually trying to argue that God, Who created the universe, us included, does not have the right to take the life He CREATED!? You are arguing that death itself is unjust.



FYI: That doesn't come close to refuting the actual argument.

[Sparko]

Er, wait, you are actually trying to argue that God, Who created the universe, us included, does not have the right to take the life He CREATED!? You are arguing that death itself is unjust.



FYI: That doesn't come close to refuting the actual argument.

We have pointed this out to him before. And that Allah also takes lives and even commands people be killed in his name.

[Teallaura]

We have pointed this out to him before. And that Allah also takes lives and even commands people be killed in his name.

I figured as much but decided not to take that tack. However, the same argument would be true of allah - if he is sovereign god, he has the right to take life.

[JimL]

I figured as much but decided not to take that tack. However, the same argument would be true of allah - if he is sovereign god, he has the right to take life.

Having a right to do an injustice doesn't make it just. Your argument amounts to asserting that for god what is just is the subjective arbitrary decision of a King. If that be the case, then please inform seer that there is no such thing as a devine, objective moral standard.

[Teallaura]

Having a right to do an injustice doesn't make it just. Your argument amounts to asserting that for god what is just is the subjective arbitrary decision of a King. If that be the case, then please inform seer that there is no such thing as a devine, objective moral standard.

Jim, that's literally irrational - if you have the right to do X it cannot be unjust to exercise that right.

And it wouldn't affect Seer's argument at all - God is still well within His own standard - there's nothing unjust about exercising an actual right.


A farmer doesn't commit animal cruelty when he wrings a hen's neck - he has every legal right to kill his livestock. God has every right to decide matters of life and death - there is nothing inherently unjust about Him doing so.

[ReformedApologist]

Er, wait, you are actually trying to argue that God, Who created the universe, us included, does not have the right to take the life He CREATED!? You are arguing that death itself is unjust.



FYI: That doesn't come close to refuting the actual argument.

I guess God is according to him limited by the power of his creation. According to the Quran all commands are based on Allah's decrees and not human choices, so how does that help his argument? in Islam everything is Allah's will.

[Teallaura]

I guess God is according to him limited by the power of his creation. According to the Quran all commands are based on Allah's decrees and not human choices, so how does that help his argument? in Islam everything is Allah's will.

It actually would be a pretty damning argument against islam - I mean, if it were at all rational. But if you start with the premise that islam might be true, the argument immediately fails - for the same reason it can't work here.

[Same Hakeem]

Er, wait, you are actually trying to argue that God, Who created the universe, us included, does not have the right to take the life He CREATED!? You are arguing that death itself is unjust.



FYI: That doesn't come close to refuting the actual argument.

Not true. As I wrote, the Bible says "God is not unjust" in Hebrews 6:10 and God commanded in 2 Kings 14:6 that "the son shall not bear the sin of the father, everyone shall die for his own sin" but God commands to kill infants and children in 1 Sam 15:3 and Ezk 9:6 respectively.

Your reasoning is contradicted by the verses of the Bible.

[Teallaura]

God has attributes in the Bible. One of his attributes is just according to Hebrews 6:10. So how can God be just and command to kill infants in 1 Samuel 15:3? God cannot be just and order to infants.

Not true. As I wrote, the Bible says "God is not unjust" in Hebrews 6:10 and God commanded in 2 Kings 14:6 that "the son shall not bear the sin of the father, everyone shall die for his own sin" but God commands to kill infants and children in 1 Sam 15:3 and Ezk 9:6 respectively.

Your reasoning is contradicted by the verses of the Bible.

Not MY reasoning - you were the one asking how God could be just when He is sovereign...

You're not very good at this - it takes time to learn how to use and apply logic. You don't seem to have much practice. Next time, think about what exactly you are talking about and how it is supposed to be/work before trying to 'catch' someone else's error. Also, it's very foolish to try and fool God - or to mock Him. Be careful - God is not mocked.

[Same Hakeem]

Not MY reasoning - you were the one asking how God could be just when He is sovereign...

You're not very good at this - it takes time to learn how to use and apply logic. You don't seem to have much practice. Next time, think about what exactly you are talking about and how it is supposed to be/work before trying to 'catch' someone else's error. Also, it's very foolish to try and fool God - or to mock Him. Be careful - God is not mocked.

God is truly just. However, such just God COMMANDED to KILL INFANTS in 1 Sam 15:3 and CHILDREN in Ezk 9:6 and commanded that "the son shall not bear the sin of the father. Each is to die for his own sin" in 2 Kings 14:6. It is a contradiction logically and biblically.

[JimL]

Jim, that's literally irrational - if you have the right to do X it cannot be unjust to exercise that right.

And it wouldn't affect Seer's argument at all - God is still well within His own standard - there's nothing unjust about exercising an actual right.


A farmer doesn't commit animal cruelty when he wrings a hen's neck - he has every legal right to kill his livestock. God has every right to decide matters of life and death - there is nothing inherently unjust about Him doing so.

But Same Hakeem has already shown to you that the bible contradicts your view. Justice is either objective or arbitrarily subjective. Your argument is that it is arbitrarily subjective in accordance with the arbitrary will of a god.
And yes, it does contradict seers absolute objective moral standard. If it is arbitrary and subjective from the perspective of a god, then there can be no absolute objective moral standard. Like god, it would at times be moral to murder the innocent, and at times it would be immoral and we humans would have no way of knowing which is which.

[JonathanL]

But Same Hakeem has already shown to you that the bible contradicts your view. Justice is either objective or arbitrarily subjective. Your argument is that it is arbitrarily subjective in accordance with the arbitrary will of a god.
And yes, it does contradict seers absolute objective moral standard. If it is arbitrary and subjective from the perspective of a god, then there can be no absolute objective moral standard. Like god, it would at times be moral to murder the innocent, and at times it would be immoral and we humans would have no way of knowing which is which.

It's literally impossible for God to "murder" the innocent, because that implies that there are times when God would not be justified in taking the life of one of His created beings. Whether God has the right to take the life of someone has absolutely no bearing what so ever on whether we have that right or not.

[JimL]

It's literally impossible for God to "murder" the innocent, because that implies that there are times when God would not be justified in taking the life of one of His created beings. Whether God has the right to take the life of someone has absolutely no bearing what so ever on whether we have that right or not.

Circular argument!

[JonathanL]

Circular argument!

Nope.

[Teallaura]

God is truly just. However, such just God COMMANDED to KILL INFANTS in 1 Sam 15:3 and CHILDREN in Ezk 9:6 and commanded that "the son shall not bear the sin of the father. Each is to die for his own sin" in 2 Kings 14:6. It is a contradiction logically and biblically.

REALLY bad at this - you are now assuming all death is punishment for specific sins - which is not Biblical nor rational. The wage of sin is death - and no one is without sin - so there is no sin issue here. God, CREATOR of the UNIVERSE and all LIFE therein, OWNS IT ALL. He has every right to take back that He has granted - there is no injustice in God exercising His own rights!

When the elderly die after a long life, God is not being unjust. When a baby dies in the womb, God is not being unjust. God alone has the right to take back the lives He has given - He is not transferring ownership - it's all still His!

You really, really, should stop - the argument you are making is much more dangerous to islam than it is to Christianity. It backs you into the corner of saying that allah has no right to take life - yet he clearly does take life. So, by your logic, allah is unjust - you really don't want to go there, do you?