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Thread: Is The Bible Literally True?

  1. #321
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    One entity that happens to be three persons.
    So, are they 1 spirit or 3 spirits, after all the 3rd spirit is actually called the holy spirit, are the other two not holy or what?

    Just because humans don't work like that doesn't mean no being could be like that. Trinity is not three different beings or three different roles. One mind, three centers of consciousness? Again, we are speaking of a being outside of our space time continuum. How is it surprising that said being has differences?
    So, are you saying that you just have no clue either, that you can't really make any sense out of it either? After all, Jesus' spirit was here on earth while the father and presumably the holy spirit were out of this world, or as Jesus put it, up in heaven. So how could they be 1 entity and yet be distinct from one another in space and time?

  2. #322
    tWebber Christianbookworm's Avatar
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    You are clearly not teachable. One spirit. That is three persons.
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

  3. #323
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    So, are they 1 spirit or 3 spirits, after all the 3rd spirit is actually called the holy spirit, are the other two not holy or what?


    So, are you saying that you just have no clue either, that you can't really make any sense out of it either? After all, Jesus' spirit was here on earth while the father and presumably the holy spirit were out of this world, or as Jesus put it, up in heaven. So how could they be 1 entity and yet be distinct from one another in space and time?
    Christians have a lot of clues. It helps if we try to avoid thinking of God as occupying a position in space, like a material object. Our thoughts do not occupy space - neither does God.

    An analogy I find helpful, is to think of the Father as a story-teller who inserts Himself in his story as a character in it. That character, is Christ. And the attitude and ability with which this is done, is a bit like the Holy Spirit.

    Another analogy: the Father is Loved Infinitely by the Son, and the Son by the Father; the Infinite Love Each has of the Other is a Divine Person, the Holy Spirit. Only God loves God perfectly, and this Perfect Love is God.

    Another: An idea can be in an author’s mind, expressed on paper, and in the mind of another. They are a single concept, existing in three different modes. The idea is one, but it is not exhausted by any of the modes of its existence or expression.

    Another: a word can be in the mind of the speaker, expressed by speaking, and in the ear of the hearer.

    Analogies that don’t help should be forgotten. These analogies are imperfect, necessarily so - because no created intellect can know God as God knows God. Only God can be truly compared to God - all other comparisons limp.

    Because we are by nature so unlike our Creator, it makes no sense to suppose that we can know God in the Infinite manner that the Son does. If we are not capable of understanding all the secrets of the material universe, how we can expect to have exhaustive knowledge of its Creator ? If our pets cannot know us exhaustively, why should we expect to know God exhaustively ? Finite human beings do not have the capacity to know God perfectly - human knowledge of God can only ever be finite. To understand the Tri-Une God perfectly, we would need to be God.
    Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 12-04-2019 at 12:51 AM.

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
    There is a verbal contradiction - but not a contradiction in theology. If a text said “Jesus Christ is God in the flesh” and another text said, “Jesus Christ is not, in any sense, God in the flesh” - that would be a contradiction, because the two statements make claims about the same topic that exclude one another.

    Two statements about the same topic, that make claims about it that do not exclude one another, are not contradictions: “Zebras are black” is, in a sense, true. “Zebras are white” is also, in a sense, true. Both are statements about the coloration of zebras. Neither statement covers all the truth about their coloration. Neither statement need be taken as stating all the truth about their coloration, even if such an interpretation may seem to be self-evidently and alone valid. Blackness is a quality of zebras - and so is whiteness. A full account of what being a zebra entails, will do justice to both aspects of their coloration.

    All 3 of your examples are clarified, and solved, by their contexts. What “seeing God” entails is different for NT Christians, who have seen Christ Himself, the Supreme Revelation of God, from what it is for Job, who has been in pre-Christian spiritual anguish that his theology, and that of his friends, cannot cope with. St Matthew 5.8 is true under both Testaments - impurity of heart is an obstacle to seeing God for Jew, Gentile, and Christian alike. The supposed contradiction is verbal - but it is not real.

    Contradictions are of many kinds. “Edinburgh is the capital of Scotland” is true in 2019 AD - in 2000 BC neither Scotland nor Edinburgh existed. And in 1500 AD, Scotland’s capital was Dunfermline. Some statements are true, or have meaning at all, at certain times, & not at others.
    Your above reasoning is wrong biblically because God does not change according to Malaki 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I change not" and hence when 1 Timothy 6:16 says "no one has seen God nor can see God" and in Job 42:5 Job addressing God saying "my eyes have seen you"; it is a contradiction.

  5. #325
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
    Christians have a lot of clues. It helps if we try to avoid thinking of God as occupying a position in space, like a material object. Our thoughts do not occupy space - neither does God.
    So, god is like a thought, he doesn't exist anywhere?
    An analogy I find helpful, is to think of the Father as a story-teller who inserts Himself in his story as a character in it. That character, is Christ. And the attitude and ability with which this is done, is a bit like the Holy Spirit.
    So, god, who doesn't exist anywhere, places himself in the existing somewhere?
    Another analogy: the Father is Loved Infinitely by the Son, and the Son by the Father; the Infinite Love Each has of the Other is a Divine Person, the Holy Spirit. Only God loves God perfectly, and this Perfect Love is God.
    So, god is Love that doesn't exist anywhere? Sorry, but the idea that there is such a thing as non dimentional existence is a belief with no evidence.
    Another: An idea can be in an authorÂ’s mind, expressed on paper, and in the mind of another. They are a single concept, existing in three different modes. The idea is one, but it is not exhausted by any of the modes of its existence or expression.
    An idea, in so far as it does exist, exists in space, on paper or in a brain, it doesn't exist in and of itself.
    Another: a word can be in the mind of the speaker, expressed by speaking, and in the ear of the hearer.
    See above.
    Analogies that donÂ’t help should be forgotten. These analogies are imperfect, necessarily so - because no created intellect can know God as God knows God. Only God can be truly compared to God - all other comparisons limp.
    Then by what reason should one believe that these analogies have any validity, or any relationship to reality?
    Because we are by nature so unlike our Creator, it makes no sense to suppose that we can know God in the Infinite manner that the Son does. If we are not capable of understanding all the secrets of the material universe, how we can expect to have exhaustive knowledge of its Creator ? If our pets cannot know us exhaustively, why should we expect to know God exhaustively ? Finite human beings do not have the capacity to know God perfectly - human knowledge of God can only ever be finite. To understand the Tri-Une God perfectly, we would need to be God.
    I appreciate your efforts to convince, RJ, but I think it makes no sense to suppose god in the first place. The idea that the universe was created out of nothing, that an eternally nowhere/existing god spoke the universe into existence from out of nothing is a baseless and unreasonable assumption to make.

  6. #326
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
    There is a verbal contradiction - but not a contradiction in theology. If a text said “Jesus Christ is God in the flesh” and another text said, “Jesus Christ is not, in any sense, God in the flesh” - that would be a contradiction, because the two statements make claims about the same topic that exclude one another.

    Two statements about the same topic, that make claims about it that do not exclude one another, are not contradictions: “Zebras are black” is, in a sense, true. “Zebras are white” is also, in a sense, true. Both are statements about the coloration of zebras. Neither statement covers all the truth about their coloration. Neither statement need be taken as stating all the truth about their coloration, even if such an interpretation may seem to be self-evidently and alone valid. Blackness is a quality of zebras - and so is whiteness. A full account of what being a zebra entails, will do justice to both aspects of their coloration.

    All 3 of your examples are clarified, and solved, by their contexts. What “seeing God” entails is different for NT Christians, who have seen Christ Himself, the Supreme Revelation of God, from what it is for Job, who has been in pre-Christian spiritual anguish that his theology, and that of his friends, cannot cope with. St Matthew 5.8 is true under both Testaments - impurity of heart is an obstacle to seeing God for Jew, Gentile, and Christian alike. The supposed contradiction is verbal - but it is not real.

    Contradictions are of many kinds. “Edinburgh is the capital of Scotland” is true in 2019 AD - in 2000 BC neither Scotland nor Edinburgh existed. And in 1500 AD, Scotland’s capital was Dunfermline. Some statements are true, or have meaning at all, at certain times, & not at others.

    In this regard, there is a flat out contradition because John 1:18 "no one has seen EVER seen God"; however, Job said to God "my eyes have seen you" in Job 42:5.

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