Is The Bible Literally True?

[lee_merrill]

But, there is no taking out of context, or different meaning to the phrase in Timothy 6:16 "no one has seen or can see god." It doesn't leave an opening for exceptions, for other interpretations, it simply and clearly says no one has or can see god. Same with Job 42:5. What else could "my eyes have seen you mean, other that he saw god with his eyes. It's true that context etc matters, but that fact in itself alone doesn't explain these otherwise obvious contradictions.

"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known." (John 1:18)

So people have seen Jesus, who is himself God, yet no one can see God in his Triune glory.

Blessings,
Lee

[JimL]

"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known." (John 1:18)

That is as much as to say that "No one has ever seen the father, but they have seen the son both of whom are god. But seeing the son, who is god, still contradicts the statement "no one has ever seen god."

So people have seen Jesus, who is himself God, yet no one can see God in his Triune glory.

So, people have seen one god, out of the three gods, that make up the one god?

I think your arguments should be that god is spirit, and though people have seen the body of jesus, the body is not itself god, the spirit inhabiting the body is, and therefore no one has actually seen god. I mean, the whole thing is still rather silly, but at least it clears up the contradiction in a way.

[lee_merrill]

That is as much as to say that "No one has ever seen the father, but they have seen the son both of whom are god. But seeing the son, who is god, still contradicts the statement "no one has ever seen god."

Well, given that John says people have seen Jesus who is God, and no one can see God, we must be using God in two different senses here.

So, people have seen one god, out of the three gods, that make up the one god?

I think your arguments should be that god is spirit, and though people have seen the body of jesus, the body is not itself god, the spirit inhabiting the body is, and therefore no one has actually seen god. I mean, the whole thing is still rather silly, but at least it clears up the contradiction in a way.

Well, you raise a good point here, but Jesus is in body and spirit, God. We are in the image of God, so the body is part of that image.

Blessings,
Lee

[JimL]

Really? Does the father, son, and the holy spirit, all have physical bodies or are they, them, it, however you want to define the 3 in 1 scheme, spirits? And are they 3 distinct spirits, akin to the 3 personas, or just 1 spirit?

[Christianbookworm]

One entity that happens to be three persons. Just because humans don't work like that doesn't mean no being could be like that. Trinity is not three different beings or three different roles. One mind, three centers of consciousness? Again, we are speaking of a being outside of our space time continuum. How is it surprising that said being has differences?

[JimL]

One entity that happens to be three persons.

So, are they 1 spirit or 3 spirits, after all the 3rd spirit is actually called the holy spirit, are the other two not holy or what?

Just because humans don't work like that doesn't mean no being could be like that. Trinity is not three different beings or three different roles. One mind, three centers of consciousness? Again, we are speaking of a being outside of our space time continuum. How is it surprising that said being has differences?

So, are you saying that you just have no clue either, that you can't really make any sense out of it either? After all, Jesus' spirit was here on earth while the father and presumably the holy spirit were out of this world, or as Jesus put it, up in heaven. So how could they be 1 entity and yet be distinct from one another in space and time?

[Christianbookworm]

You are clearly not teachable. One spirit. That is three persons.

[Rushing Jaws]

So, are they 1 spirit or 3 spirits, after all the 3rd spirit is actually called the holy spirit, are the other two not holy or what?


So, are you saying that you just have no clue either, that you can't really make any sense out of it either? After all, Jesus' spirit was here on earth while the father and presumably the holy spirit were out of this world, or as Jesus put it, up in heaven. So how could they be 1 entity and yet be distinct from one another in space and time?

[Same Hakeem]

There is a verbal contradiction - but not a contradiction in theologyverbal - but it is not real

Your above reasoning is wrong biblically because God does not change according to Malaki 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I change not" and hence when 1 Timothy 6:16 says "no one has seen God nor can see God" and in Job 42:5 Job addressing God saying "my eyes have seen you"; it is a contradiction.

[JimL]

Christians have a lot of clues. It helps if we try to avoid thinking of God as occupying a position in space, like a material object. Our thoughts do not occupy space - neither does God.

So, god is like a thought, he doesn't exist anywhere?

An analogy I find helpful, is to think of the Father as a story-teller who inserts Himself in his story as a character in it. That character, is Christ. And the attitude and ability with which this is done, is a bit like the Holy Spirit.

So, god, who doesn't exist anywhere, places himself in the existing somewhere?

Another analogy: the Father is Loved Infinitely by the Son, and the Son by the Father; the Infinite Love Each has of the Other is a Divine Person, the Holy Spirit. Only God loves God perfectly, and this Perfect Love is God.

So, god is Love that doesn't exist anywhere? Sorry, but the idea that there is such a thing as non dimentional existence is a belief with no evidence.

Another: An idea can be in an author’s mind, expressed on paper, and in the mind of another. They are a single concept, existing in three different modes. The idea is one, but it is not exhausted by any of the modes of its existence or expression.

An idea, in so far as it does exist, exists in space, on paper or in a brain, it doesn't exist in and of itself.

Another: a word can be in the mind of the speaker, expressed by speaking, and in the ear of the hearer.

See above.

Analogies that don’t help should be forgotten. These analogies are imperfect, necessarily so - because no created intellect can know God as God knows God. Only God can be truly compared to God - all other comparisons limp.

Then by what reason should one believe that these analogies have any validity, or any relationship to reality?

Because we are by nature so unlike our Creator, it makes no sense to suppose that we can know God in the Infinite manner that the Son does. If we are not capable of understanding all the secrets of the material universe, how we can expect to have exhaustive knowledge of its Creator ? If our pets cannot know us exhaustively, why should we expect to know God exhaustively ? Finite human beings do not have the capacity to know God perfectly - human knowledge of God can only ever be finite. To understand the Tri-Une God perfectly, we would need to be God.

I appreciate your efforts to convince, RJ, but I think it makes no sense to suppose god in the first place. The idea that the universe was created out of nothing, that an eternally nowhere/existing god spoke the universe into existence from out of nothing is a baseless and unreasonable assumption to make.

[Same Hakeem]

There is a verbal contradiction - but not a contradiction in theologyverbal - but it is not real

In this regard, there is a flat out contradition because John 1:18 "no one has seen EVER seen God"; however, Job said to God "my eyes have seen you" in Job 42:5.