Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Time to ascend?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    I'm guessing you mean at the Second Coming. Caught up isn't the same thing as 'everybody goes to heaven'. Actually, it comes to us in the form of the New Jerusalem.

    Why do you assume heaven is light years away?
    Well, Heaven is "supposedly" where ever god was before the existence of his "supposed" created world, right. Where Jesus ascended to sit at the right hand of his alter ego. Therefore heaven would be outside of, or beyond the universe which is itself 14 billion lightyears across. Where do you think Jesus was heading when he ascended?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by JimL View Post
      Well, Heaven is "supposedly" where ever god was before the existence of his "supposed" created world, right. Where Jesus ascended to sit at the right hand of his alter ego. Therefore heaven would be outside of, or beyond the universe which is itself 14 billion lightyears across. Where do you think Jesus was heading when he ascended?
      I think the Ascension was for the disciple's benefit - otherwise, they'd have kept looking around for Him - that's just human nature.

      Heaven is where God is - but God is spirit. A better way to look at it as like (this is an analogy, not a description) parallel dimensions, in which one can see the other but the other can only infrequently glimpse the first (probably with help from the same). Heaven is impossible to reach but still right here.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Quill Sword

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        Jim is more interested in getting his impression of Christianity from Left Behind movies than what the Bible actually says.
        He's got plenty of company.
        In 2007, the Evangelical Christian Publishers Association (ECPA) recognized the Left Behind series at its CBA & ECPA Awards Celebration in Atlanta, Georgia with the ECPA Pinnacle Award. ECPA President Mark Kuyper said, "In many ways this series established Christian fiction as a significant category in publishing in general." Jerry Falwell said about the first book in the series: "In terms of its impact on Christianity, it's probably greater than that of any other book in modern times, outside the Bible."

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by JimL View Post
          Thanks, but I wasn't worried about it Faber. But seriously, if you are expecting to bodily ascend up to heaven don't you think it'll take you tens of billions of years in travelling time to get there.
          Probably. I'm overweight. But I'll have plenty of time.
          When I Survey....

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by JimL View Post
            Just curious if any Christians know, or have any ideas as to, once they begin their ascension, how long it will take them to reach the promised land. I don't know, but I'm thinking it must be quite a long flight being that heaven must be outside and beyond the 14 billion light year across universe, so, even should you travel at the speed of light, it would take at the very least 14 billion years to get there. It's a really long way to go!
            Your question assumes that there is a distance, which has to do with locations in space, between here and heaven. So if we know where we are now, the question ultimately boils down to the location of heaven.

            But are you getting your ideas on what Christianity has to say from one segment of Christians? (albeit a very vocal and important segment) Not sure if you are aware, but not all Christians are of like mind on this issue. I wonder if you would be willing to accept a view which compresses all Democrats, atheists, or evolutionists into one small category!

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              Well, Heaven is "supposedly" where ever god was before the existence of his "supposed" created world, right. Where Jesus ascended to sit at the right hand of his alter ego. Therefore heaven would be outside of, or beyond the universe which is itself 14 billion lightyears across. Where do you think Jesus was heading when he ascended?
              I'll assume your OP is being honest and that you're not trolling, and answer as good as I can.

              Since God is omnipresent, it doesn't make sense to talk about a physical location of Him relative to something else. He has the same physical relation to everything. If all physical locations in the universe was on the rim of a circle (using this purely as an analogy), God would sit in the center. There is no place in the universe, anywhere, shorter or further away from Him.

              14 billion lightyears away from the Milky Way or 2 inches away from your face would both be just as close to Him.

              What happened to Christ, as He physically ascended into Heaven, has always been under stood as God doing that for the benefit of his disciples.

              As Christians traditionally conceive of it, Heaven is a physical place as well as a spiritual place. We know little more of it than this. Its not of the same sort of timelessness or omnipresence that God alone enjoys, but it is... closer to it... closer to the center than the rim, but not in the center, as per the analogy I gave. Heaven doesn't have the same restrictions when it comes to the limits of time and space as we are under. Just how unrestricted they are, and in what sense we can understand time as applying to them is not something theologians have ever had a full and proper agreement on.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                Your question assumes that there is a distance, which has to do with locations in space, between here and heaven. So if we know where we are now, the question ultimately boils down to the location of heaven.

                But are you getting your ideas on what Christianity has to say from one segment of Christians? (albeit a very vocal and important segment) Not sure if you are aware, but not all Christians are of like mind on this issue. I wonder if you would be willing to accept a view which compresses all Democrats, atheists, or evolutionists into one small category!
                Well, apparently Jesus had to physically fly like a bird through space to get to his home base, the place that Christians call heaven, so I'm not getting my ideas from what any one segment of Christianity might believe, I'm getting it from the Bible itself. I think that christians also believe that the physical body resurrects, and so will physically exist in this heaven, which place would needs be in a physical location. I see now that some christians are saying they don't ascend at all, that ascension was just a Jesus thing, but for them, they don't ascend, apparently for them, heaven isn't a place but a state of mind, I'm guessing.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Well, apparently Jesus had to physically fly like a bird through space to get to his home base, the place that Christians call heaven, so I'm not getting my ideas from what any one segment of Christianity might believe, I'm getting it from the Bible itself. I think that christians also believe that the physical body resurrects, and so will physically exist in this heaven, which place would needs be in a physical location. I see now that some christians are saying they don't ascend at all, that ascension was just a Jesus thing, but for them, they don't ascend, apparently for them, heaven isn't a place but a state of mind, I'm guessing.
                  Assumes facts not in evidence - and defies facts that are. Only Jesus ever physically ascends (unless we count Elijah, which wouldn't be a problem here) yet we are told there are saints are in Heaven and Jesus promised the thief that he too would be in paradise that day. Physical ascension is therefore not a necessary part of going to Heaven.

                  As I explained before, the Ascension isn't so Jesus can get there - it's so the disciples can see Him go somewhere they can't follow.
                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Quill Sword

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                    Assumes facts not in evidence - and defies facts that are. Only Jesus ever physically ascends (unless we count Elijah, which wouldn't be a problem here) yet we are told there are saints are in Heaven and Jesus promised the thief that he too would be in paradise that day. Physical ascension is therefore not a necessary part of going to Heaven.
                    Well, so there is this place called heaven then. So then, how long do you suppose it took Elijah to physically ascend to heaven?
                    As I explained before, the Ascension isn't so Jesus can get there - it's so the disciples can see Him go somewhere they can't follow.
                    So, the ascension to heaven was real for Elijah, but more of a magic show in Jesus case?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      I'll assume your OP is being honest and that you're not trolling, and answer as good as I can.

                      Since God is omnipresent, it doesn't make sense to talk about a physical location of Him relative to something else. He has the same physical relation to everything. If all physical locations in the universe was on the rim of a circle (using this purely as an analogy), God would sit in the center. There is no place in the universe, anywhere, shorter or further away from Him.

                      14 billion lightyears away from the Milky Way or 2 inches away from your face would both be just as close to Him.

                      What happened to Christ, as He physically ascended into Heaven, has always been under stood as God doing that for the benefit of his disciples.

                      As Christians traditionally conceive of it, Heaven is a physical place as well as a spiritual place.


                      We know little more of it than this. Its not of the same sort of timelessness or omnipresence that God alone enjoys, but it is... closer to it... closer to the center than the rim, but not in the center, as per the analogy I gave. Heaven doesn't have the same restrictions when it comes to the limits of time and space as we are under. Just how unrestricted they are, and in what sense we can understand time as applying to them is not something theologians have ever had a full and proper agreement on.
                      So, basically, you really have no idea? Is that what you're saying?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        So, basically, you really have no idea? Is that what you're saying?
                        No. I answered what your claim that God or Heaven was more than 14 billion light-years away.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          Well, so there is this place called heaven then.
                          Not part of our space-time continuum.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                            No. I answered what your claim that God or Heaven was more than 14 billion light-years away.
                            Not really Leonard. You were kind of all over the map so to speak. It just looked as though you were trying to make some kind of sense out of it yourself, but weren't very clear.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                              Not part of our space-time continuum.
                              And you know this how?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Well, apparently Jesus had to physically fly like a bird through space to get to his home base, the place that Christians call heaven, so I'm not getting my ideas from what any one segment of Christianity might believe, I'm getting it from the Bible itself.
                                Are you sure you aren't appropriating the arguments of some segment of Christians? The Bible does say Jesus ascended (and I notice that you are accepting the Bible for the purposes of this discussion), implying that was the main point of the passage. I doubt you would apply that to any other form of literature.

                                From the account we have (and you are using) we know the apostles dealt with Jesus is a direct, personal, and material way; then they did not. In between was the ascension; a key point is that Jesus was not in front of them to allow their hands to handle his wounds as Thomas did.

                                I do not think the narrative supports your interpretation as the only one, the perspective of the audience and the participants is referred to quite often.

                                I think that christians also believe that the physical body resurrects, and so will physically exist in this heaven, which place would needs be in a physical location.
                                I see now that some christians are saying they don't ascend at all, that ascension was just a Jesus thing, but for them, they don't ascend, apparently for them, heaven isn't a place but a state of mind, I'm guessing.
                                So, was this the point of the thread, whether heaven is a state or a location? Christians themselves are in disagreement on this, a Pope made a controversial statement about heaven (and hell) being states and not necessarily location. Maybe part of the problem we have in looking at it is our ambiguity in language, we have difficulty in holding things in our imagination that are real, physical, and literal, but do not have the precise properties we see around us.

                                Do you think anything that may not be quite tangible (as say our keyboard in front of us) and still be real?

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, Yesterday, 03:01 PM
                                14 responses
                                60 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                                21 responses
                                129 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                                78 responses
                                414 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                                45 responses
                                303 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Working...
                                X