Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 50

Thread: Time to ascend?

  1. #21
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Denmark - Jutland
    Faith
    Catholic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,399
    Amen (Given)
    847
    Amen (Received)
    2480
    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Well, Heaven is "supposedly" where ever god was before the existence of his "supposed" created world, right. Where Jesus ascended to sit at the right hand of his alter ego. Therefore heaven would be outside of, or beyond the universe which is itself 14 billion lightyears across. Where do you think Jesus was heading when he ascended?
    I'll assume your OP is being honest and that you're not trolling, and answer as good as I can.

    Since God is omnipresent, it doesn't make sense to talk about a physical location of Him relative to something else. He has the same physical relation to everything. If all physical locations in the universe was on the rim of a circle (using this purely as an analogy), God would sit in the center. There is no place in the universe, anywhere, shorter or further away from Him.

    14 billion lightyears away from the Milky Way or 2 inches away from your face would both be just as close to Him.

    What happened to Christ, as He physically ascended into Heaven, has always been under stood as God doing that for the benefit of his disciples.

    As Christians traditionally conceive of it, Heaven is a physical place as well as a spiritual place. We know little more of it than this. Its not of the same sort of timelessness or omnipresence that God alone enjoys, but it is... closer to it... closer to the center than the rim, but not in the center, as per the analogy I gave. Heaven doesn't have the same restrictions when it comes to the limits of time and space as we are under. Just how unrestricted they are, and in what sense we can understand time as applying to them is not something theologians have ever had a full and proper agreement on.

  2. Amen Teallaura amen'd this post.
  3. #22
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    9,387
    Amen (Given)
    1138
    Amen (Received)
    1219
    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    Your question assumes that there is a distance, which has to do with locations in space, between here and heaven. So if we know where we are now, the question ultimately boils down to the location of heaven.

    But are you getting your ideas on what Christianity has to say from one segment of Christians? (albeit a very vocal and important segment) Not sure if you are aware, but not all Christians are of like mind on this issue. I wonder if you would be willing to accept a view which compresses all Democrats, atheists, or evolutionists into one small category!
    Well, apparently Jesus had to physically fly like a bird through space to get to his home base, the place that Christians call heaven, so I'm not getting my ideas from what any one segment of Christianity might believe, I'm getting it from the Bible itself. I think that christians also believe that the physical body resurrects, and so will physically exist in this heaven, which place would needs be in a physical location. I see now that some christians are saying they don't ascend at all, that ascension was just a Jesus thing, but for them, they don't ascend, apparently for them, heaven isn't a place but a state of mind, I'm guessing.

  4. #23
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    In my house.
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    12,696
    Amen (Given)
    6034
    Amen (Received)
    4616
    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Well, apparently Jesus had to physically fly like a bird through space to get to his home base, the place that Christians call heaven, so I'm not getting my ideas from what any one segment of Christianity might believe, I'm getting it from the Bible itself. I think that christians also believe that the physical body resurrects, and so will physically exist in this heaven, which place would needs be in a physical location. I see now that some christians are saying they don't ascend at all, that ascension was just a Jesus thing, but for them, they don't ascend, apparently for them, heaven isn't a place but a state of mind, I'm guessing.
    Assumes facts not in evidence - and defies facts that are. Only Jesus ever physically ascends (unless we count Elijah, which wouldn't be a problem here) yet we are told there are saints are in Heaven and Jesus promised the thief that he too would be in paradise that day. Physical ascension is therefore not a necessary part of going to Heaven.

    As I explained before, the Ascension isn't so Jesus can get there - it's so the disciples can see Him go somewhere they can't follow.

  5. #24
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    9,387
    Amen (Given)
    1138
    Amen (Received)
    1219
    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Assumes facts not in evidence - and defies facts that are. Only Jesus ever physically ascends (unless we count Elijah, which wouldn't be a problem here) yet we are told there are saints are in Heaven and Jesus promised the thief that he too would be in paradise that day. Physical ascension is therefore not a necessary part of going to Heaven.
    Well, so there is this place called heaven then. So then, how long do you suppose it took Elijah to physically ascend to heaven?
    As I explained before, the Ascension isn't so Jesus can get there - it's so the disciples can see Him go somewhere they can't follow.
    So, the ascension to heaven was real for Elijah, but more of a magic show in Jesus case?

  6. #25
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    9,387
    Amen (Given)
    1138
    Amen (Received)
    1219
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    I'll assume your OP is being honest and that you're not trolling, and answer as good as I can.

    Since God is omnipresent, it doesn't make sense to talk about a physical location of Him relative to something else. He has the same physical relation to everything. If all physical locations in the universe was on the rim of a circle (using this purely as an analogy), God would sit in the center. There is no place in the universe, anywhere, shorter or further away from Him.

    14 billion lightyears away from the Milky Way or 2 inches away from your face would both be just as close to Him.

    What happened to Christ, as He physically ascended into Heaven, has always been under stood as God doing that for the benefit of his disciples.

    As Christians traditionally conceive of it, Heaven is a physical place as well as a spiritual place.


    We know little more of it than this. Its not of the same sort of timelessness or omnipresence that God alone enjoys, but it is... closer to it... closer to the center than the rim, but not in the center, as per the analogy I gave. Heaven doesn't have the same restrictions when it comes to the limits of time and space as we are under. Just how unrestricted they are, and in what sense we can understand time as applying to them is not something theologians have ever had a full and proper agreement on.
    So, basically, you really have no idea? Is that what you're saying?

  7. #26
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Denmark - Jutland
    Faith
    Catholic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,399
    Amen (Given)
    847
    Amen (Received)
    2480
    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    So, basically, you really have no idea? Is that what you're saying?
    No. I answered what your claim that God or Heaven was more than 14 billion light-years away.

  8. #27
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Denmark - Jutland
    Faith
    Catholic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,399
    Amen (Given)
    847
    Amen (Received)
    2480
    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Well, so there is this place called heaven then.
    Not part of our space-time continuum.

  9. Amen Jedidiah, Teallaura, Christianbookworm amen'd this post.
  10. #28
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    9,387
    Amen (Given)
    1138
    Amen (Received)
    1219
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    No. I answered what your claim that God or Heaven was more than 14 billion light-years away.
    Not really Leonard. You were kind of all over the map so to speak. It just looked as though you were trying to make some kind of sense out of it yourself, but weren't very clear.

  11. #29
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    9,387
    Amen (Given)
    1138
    Amen (Received)
    1219
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    Not part of our space-time continuum.
    And you know this how?

  12. #30
    tWebber
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    132
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Well, apparently Jesus had to physically fly like a bird through space to get to his home base, the place that Christians call heaven, so I'm not getting my ideas from what any one segment of Christianity might believe, I'm getting it from the Bible itself.
    Are you sure you aren't appropriating the arguments of some segment of Christians? The Bible does say Jesus ascended (and I notice that you are accepting the Bible for the purposes of this discussion), implying that was the main point of the passage. I doubt you would apply that to any other form of literature.

    From the account we have (and you are using) we know the apostles dealt with Jesus is a direct, personal, and material way; then they did not. In between was the ascension; a key point is that Jesus was not in front of them to allow their hands to handle his wounds as Thomas did.

    I do not think the narrative supports your interpretation as the only one, the perspective of the audience and the participants is referred to quite often.

    I think that christians also believe that the physical body resurrects, and so will physically exist in this heaven, which place would needs be in a physical location.
    I see now that some christians are saying they don't ascend at all, that ascension was just a Jesus thing, but for them, they don't ascend, apparently for them, heaven isn't a place but a state of mind, I'm guessing.
    So, was this the point of the thread, whether heaven is a state or a location? Christians themselves are in disagreement on this, a Pope made a controversial statement about heaven (and hell) being states and not necessarily location. Maybe part of the problem we have in looking at it is our ambiguity in language, we have difficulty in holding things in our imagination that are real, physical, and literal, but do not have the precise properties we see around us.

    Do you think anything that may not be quite tangible (as say our keyboard in front of us) and still be real?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •