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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
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Christians Ascend?
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostVery much. And I don't think this is the first time."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostMy apologies, then.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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So, let's be clear -- I'm not disputing at all the resurrection of the saints, or the rapture, or anything of the sort...
And I'm not trying to nitpick terminology.
I was genuinely curious, so I asked. When the Lutherans shared our building, I learned a lot of terminology I didn't grow up with, and found it interesting.
I was simply - as stated in the OP - curious if I could be wrong that we (Christians) don't generally refer to our "going to Heaven" as "ascending".The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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JimL's real goof is thinking that heaven is in outer space. But then that is Jimmy.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostJimL's real goof is thinking that heaven is in outer space. But then that is Jimmy.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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I think there was a bit of confusion in the thread in parsing between the concept of ascending and being taken up into the heavens. I don't know whether or not Jesus ascended into the clouds upon his own power, or through the power of the Father, but I think it probably doesn't make much difference. The Greek word for "ascend" simply means something like "goes on up", and is used in all sorts of ways. So for instance we read in Mark 10:32a, "And they were on the road, going up to Jerusalem, and Jesus was walking ahead of them." It's also sometimes used in a sense of being brought up. In that sense, then, angels, Enoch, and Elijah could be said to have ascended to heaven before Jesus.
What Jesus meant in John 3 isn't that no man had ever ascended to heaven, period (I don't think). He certainly knew that Enoch and Elijah were known to have been taken up, and it's not like the author of John would have forgotten those two (especially as he mentions Elijah two chapters earlier). To understand what Jesus means we have to look at the context, and the context of John 3 shows us Jesus talking to Nicodemus about the Kingdom of God and how to be born again. At one point Nicodemus, stunned by what he's hearing, asks, "how can these things be?", then Jesus is like, "you're a teacher, and you don't even know these things? This is where I'm getting my knowledge from man. No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man." In other words, the context is directly concerned with how Jesus can know the things he knows. He knows them because he descended from heaven, and no man had ever done that, and no one with the sort of knowledge he has ever ascended to heaven either. This is the way D.A. Carson paraphrases it, taking the language and context in mind,
"No-one [else] has ascended into heaven and remained there [so as to be able to speak authoritatively about heavenly things] but only the one who has come down from heaven [is equipped to do so]."
This is especially relevant to John's audience, as they would have been familiar with intertestamental works like the the Books of Enoch which suggest that Enoch came down from heaven with special knowledge about the Watchers, and all sort of end time mysteries.
What I think is the more interesting topic is what happened to Enoch and Elijah. I've heard some people say that the Bible doesn't report that Enoch didn't die, but that he was transported so that he wouldn't see death, and while I think that interpretation is likely incorrect, I think there might be something to it. It may be that Enoch and Elijah were taken, in that, at the natural point near when they should have died, instead of dying a mortal death, their spirits were simply received into Abraham's Bosom directly. What God did with their physical bodies then is the mystery. We know from Paul that the physical can't inherit the kingdom of God, nor the imperishable the perishable, so they couldn't have taken their mortal bodies with them. We also know that Jesus is the first-fruit, not Enoch or Elijah. So they can't be in resurrected bodies. It seems likely to me, then, that they're currently in the presence of the saints who died natural deaths, waiting for the general resurrection as we all are.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI think there was a bit of confusion in the thread in parsing between the concept of ascending and being taken up into the heavens. I don't know whether or not Jesus ascended into the clouds upon his own power, or through the power of the Father, but I think it probably doesn't make much difference. The Greek word for "ascend" simply means something like "goes on up", and is used in all sorts of ways. So for instance we read in Mark 10:32a, "And they were on the road, going up to Jerusalem, and Jesus was walking ahead of them." It's also sometimes used in a sense of being brought up. In that sense, then, angels, Enoch, and Elijah could be said to have ascended to heaven before Jesus.
What Jesus meant in John 3 isn't that no man had ever ascended to heaven, period (I don't think). He certainly knew that Enoch and Elijah were known to have been taken up, and it's not like the author of John would have forgotten those two (especially as he mentions Elijah two chapters earlier). To understand what Jesus means we have to look at the context, and the context of John 3 shows us Jesus talking to Nicodemus about the Kingdom of God and how to be born again. At one point Nicodemus, stunned by what he's hearing, asks, "how can these things be?", then Jesus is like, "you're a teacher, and you don't even know these things? This is where I'm getting my knowledge from man. No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man." In other words, the context is directly concerned with how Jesus can know the things he knows. He knows them because he descended from heaven, and no man had ever done that, and no one with the sort of knowledge he has ever ascended to heaven either. This is the way D.A. Carson paraphrases it, taking the language and context in mind,
"No-one [else] has ascended into heaven and remained there [so as to be able to speak authoritatively about heavenly things] but only the one who has come down from heaven [is equipped to do so]."
This is especially relevant to John's audience, as they would have been familiar with intertestamental works like the the Books of Enoch which suggest that Enoch came down from heaven with special knowledge about the Watchers, and all sort of end time mysteries.
What I think is the more interesting topic is what happened to Enoch and Elijah. I've heard some people say that the Bible doesn't report that Enoch didn't die, but that he was transported so that he wouldn't see death, and while I think that interpretation is likely incorrect, I think there might be something to it. It may be that Enoch and Elijah were taken, in that, at the natural point near when they should have died, instead of dying a mortal death, their spirits were simply received into Abraham's Bosom directly. What God did with their physical bodies then is the mystery. We know from Paul that the physical can't inherit the kingdom of God, nor the imperishable the perishable, so they couldn't have taken their mortal bodies with them. We also know that Jesus is the first-fruit, not Enoch or Elijah. So they can't be in resurrected bodies. It seems likely to me, then, that they're currently in the presence of the saints who died natural deaths, waiting for the general resurrection as we all are.
I've heard of our "going to heaven" being referred to as "caught up", "raptured", "translated"... but I have never heard of it being described in terms of "ascended". Again, the only time I ever hear (to my knowledge) of an "ascension" is in reference to Jesus Himself.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post... I was just curious if other Christians used the word "ascend" for what it is we do when we go to Heaven, either being resurrected from the dead, or "caught up" to Him in life.
I've heard of our "going to heaven" being referred to as "caught up", "raptured", "translated"... but I have never heard of it being described in terms of "ascended". Again, the only time I ever hear (to my knowledge) of an "ascension" is in reference to Jesus Himself.
Also, I have to admit that since I've been regularly watching "Stargate: Atlantis" on CometTV lately, their use of "ascention" was the first thing that popped to mind.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
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Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
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Whoa, where did I make fun of the futurist stance? I'm not even convinced of any one view of eschatology?"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostWhile I appreciate your input, I think you're way overthinking this for this thread. I was just curious if other Christians used the word "ascend" for what it is we do when we go to Heaven, either being resurrected from the dead, or "caught up" to Him in life.
I've heard of our "going to heaven" being referred to as "caught up", "raptured", "translated"... but I have never heard of it being described in terms of "ascended". Again, the only time I ever hear (to my knowledge) of an "ascension" is in reference to Jesus Himself.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostSee my first paragraph. I don't see anything wrong with the idea of us ascending into heaven during the general resurrection. I feel I have heard it used that way. I know for certain I've heard the word "ascended" in reference to Elijah (Ben Witherington, for instance, uses it that way). NT Wright translates Psalm 139:8 as "He caused me to ascend from the depths of Sheol", and this is a common word you see in other translations (including the JPS Tanakh). I honestly don't think the word "ascend" is the issue here.
There's also the issue of routinely using terminology in ways that may or may not be consistent with Scripture.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostWhile I appreciate your input, I think you're way overthinking this for this thread. I was just curious if other Christians used the word "ascend" for what it is we do when we go to Heaven, either being resurrected from the dead, or "caught up" to Him in life.
I've heard of our "going to heaven" being referred to as "caught up", "raptured", "translated"... but I have never heard of it being described in terms of "ascended". Again, the only time I ever hear (to my knowledge) of an "ascension" is in reference to Jesus Himself.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYeah, I was going to get into the fact that the Bible says Stephen looked up and beheld Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father, but I knew that would just descend (see what I did there? ) into goofus mockery.When I Survey....
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