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Atheists praying

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    In this case it just means you do not have eyes to see it.
    Don't use symbolic language around Jimmy, it confuses him.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      Don't use symbolic language around Jimmy, it confuses him.
      Literally.


      I mean....


      Hyper-literally.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by JimL View Post
        I would say it's crazier to pray to a god that you do believe exists, simply because you believe it to exist. Praying to a god you don't believe exists is a hope, or a "just in case" thing.
        Really? Doing something that you claim you don't believe in is completely normal to you?

        And you are saying you hope there is a God?

        You probably should pray there isn't one, because if there is, then you are in for a bad time the way you are going.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
          Come on lao, you can recognize hyperbole when you see it. Exceptions do not alter the fact that many atheists do pray in times of crisis.
          80 percent is not an exception.

          Come on, Jed. This particular trope is aimed directly at me, a military vet who is also an atheist. Of course I'm going to push back at folks who say I don't exist.

          ^^ Damn, that was good.

          Comment


          • #50
            Of course it is 20% that are willing to admit they do it. Something I can imagine many who do would be more than a little loathe to admit.
            Last edited by rogue06; 01-16-2018, 05:35 PM.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
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            • #51
              Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
              80 percent is not an exception.

              Come on, Jed. This particular trope is aimed directly at me, a military vet who is also an atheist. Of course I'm going to push back at folks who say I don't exist.

              ^^ Damn, that was good.
              You've never pushed back against it before.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                Of course I'm going to push back at folks who say I don't exist.
                You don't exist. You're nothing but a bot.

                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  You don't exist. You're nothing but a bot.



                  Bots are real.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    Okay, so you know it's god, you just can't explain how you know it's god. That's not really a rational position for anyone to take MM, it is a position lacking reason. Children speak to their imaginary friends as well, and they think that their imaginary friends are talking back to them. But we adults all know that their friends are not real, that they are communicating with themselves. Sane adults do this as well, except that the person to whom they are communing is real, and they know it to be themselves.
                    C. Lata, two weeks duration, present on exam. Dark field Positive, 2.4 BIC administered by RN same day. Pt denies sexual contact in last eight months. RIX done next day, same result. Change of interviewer requested.

                    In simpler terms, patient is lying and someone else needs to talk to the patient.

                    All that information is in the first paragraph - and there is no question that the patient is indeed lying. I can explain it in simpler terms - just did - but to prove that the patient is lying would require that you have actual knowledge of syphilis morphology. I can explain even that but you're still relying on my word since you don't know enough about syphilis to discern it for yourself.

                    I actually agree that people who can't explain in simple terms the basic concept likely don't understand it. But while I understand the rudiments of quantum theory, I haven't the mathematical prowess to follow more than the simplest explanation - because there comes a point at which simple explanation does not suffice.

                    MM gave you the simple explanation - it's the harder one that won't make sense to someone without the necessary vocabulary - and you don't have that. Same exact reason you don't know why I am sure the patient lied - it's outside your experience.

                    There's nothing irrational about the position - it does not lack reason. You simply aren't able to relate to what Christians experience daily - any more than a baby understands Daddy going to work - it's just outside experience not an indicator of irrationality.

                    And the analogy to imaginary friends is false - a child knows that their imaginary friend isn't really responding - they simply pretend otherwise and are fully aware of the pretense. children with imaginary friends aren't delusional; Christians experiencing the presence or response of God aren't delusional, either.

                    As to how we know we aren't talking to ourselves, that's actually obvious - we aren't addressing ourselves. Regardless of whether or not someone or Someone is listening, you only talk to yourself when you address yourself. A child talking to an imaginary friend isn't talking to himself - he's just speaking to a figment of his imagination.

                    The next question - how do we know we are talking to Anyone at all - is complex to answer and no answer will satisfy a non-believer - but since we're the ones it actually affects, that isn't a problem. I'm the only one that has to be convinced that I am being heard when I pray.
                    Last edited by Teallaura; 01-16-2018, 07:15 PM.
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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      I see. But I think that the Lords prayer is meant to be repeated over and over as a form of meditating on God. The text says "Your father knows what you need before you ask him" so I take that to mean don't be asking for stuff, just pray. But hey, that's just me.
                      Yes, it's just you.

                      The very next chapter:

                      7 “Keep asking, and it will be given to you. Keep searching, and you will find. Keep knocking, and the door will be opened for you. 8 Because everyone who keeps asking will receive, and the person who keeps searching will find, and the person who keeps knocking will have the door opened.

                      That is from the ISV.

                      The NET translates it more "conventionally," but offers this note: "Matt 7:7 (NET Notes) 1 sn The three present imperatives in this verse (Ask…seek…knock) are probably intended to call for a repeated or continual approach before God."

                      Luke 11 places the "Ask... Seek... Knock..." teaching in the context of a parable demonstrating "importunate" or "persistent" prayer.
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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                        I never "pray" the rosary.
                        Yeah its very much a Catholic thing.

                        I do pray it. Not so much recently because my mind wanders too much and the effort involved has become a strain. Still recovering from my last severe depression (back when I was ranting a lot on tweb). I hope to do it again though.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          C. Lata, two weeks duration, present on exam. Dark field Positive, 2.4 BIC administered by RN same day. Pt denies sexual contact in last eight months. RIX done next day, same result. Change of interviewer requested.

                          In simpler terms, patient is lying and someone else needs to talk to the patient.

                          All that information is in the first paragraph - and there is no question that the patient is indeed lying. I can explain it in simpler terms - just did - but to prove that the patient is lying would require that you have actual knowledge of syphilis morphology. I can explain even that but you're still relying on my word since you don't know enough about syphilis to discern it for yourself.

                          I actually agree that people who can't explain in simple terms the basic concept likely don't understand it. But while I understand the rudiments of quantum theory, I haven't the mathematical prowess to follow more than the simplest explanation - because there comes a point at which simple explanation does not suffice.

                          MM gave you the simple explanation - it's the harder one that won't make sense to someone without the necessary vocabulary - and you don't have that. Same exact reason you don't know why I am sure the patient lied - it's outside your experience.

                          There's nothing irrational about the position - it does not lack reason. You simply aren't able to relate to what Christians experience daily - any more than a baby understands Daddy going to work - it's just outside experience not an indicator of irrationality.
                          We'll have to agree to disagree about that Tea, There is no other language that explains religious experience than simple english, which I understand just fine. We disbelievers understand, we just disagree that what believers think they are experiencing is real. Not that the experience itself isn't real, every experience is real, but the believed source of that experience, that belief is where reason is lacking. People talk to themselves, it almost seems as though we are talking to others, such is how the mind works, and sometimes we can make ourselves believe that we are talking to someone else, like children do with their imaginary friends. But we're not.
                          And the analogy to imaginary friends is false - a child knows that their imaginary friend isn't really responding - they simply pretend otherwise and are fully aware of the pretense. children with imaginary friends aren't delusional; Christians experiencing the presence or response of God aren't delusional, either.
                          The difference is that, yes, deep down children know that they are just fooling themselves. Believing that their imaginary friends are real isn't something that is indoctrinated/impressed upon them culturally. They know they made it up.
                          As to how we know we aren't talking to ourselves, that's actually obvious - we aren't addressing ourselves. Regardless of whether or not someone or Someone is listening, you only talk to yourself when you address yourself. A child talking to an imaginary friend isn't talking to himself - he's just speaking to a figment of his imagination.
                          Talking to a figment of your imagination is talking to yourself. The mind that's asking is the same mind that's answering. Same in religion/prayer.
                          The next question - how do we know we are talking to Anyone at all - is complex to answer and no answer will satisfy a non-believer - but since we're the ones it actually affects, that isn't a problem. I'm the only one that has to be convinced that I am being heard when I pray.
                          That's true. It probably can't be proven that you are just internally commuicating with yourself, you'd have to figure that out for yourself.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                            Yeah its very much a Catholic thing.

                            I do pray it. Not so much recently because my mind wanders too much and the effort involved has become a strain. Still recovering from my last severe depression (back when I was ranting a lot on tweb). I hope to do it again though.
                            I think that your mind wandering so much is the exact point of, reason to, say the rosary. It's a concentration exercise, so to speak, a meditation to still the wandering mind.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                              80 percent is not an exception.

                              Come on, Jed. This particular trope is aimed directly at me, a military vet who is also an atheist. Of course I'm going to push back at folks who say I don't exist.

                              ^^ Damn, that was good.
                              Sorry, I did not know it was aimed at you. Though now that you mention it I have a vague memory of something that could be related.
                              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                We'll have to agree to disagree about that Tea, There is no other language that explains religious experience than simple english, which I understand just fine. We disbelievers understand, we just disagree that what believers think they are experiencing is real. Not that the experience itself isn't real, every experience is real, but the believed source of that experience, that belief is where reason is lacking. People talk to themselves, it almost seems as though we are talking to others, such is how the mind works, and sometimes we can make ourselves believe that we are talking to someone else, like children do with their imaginary friends. But we're not.

                                The difference is that, yes, deep down children know that they are just fooling themselves. Believing that their imaginary friends are real isn't something that is indoctrinated/impressed upon them culturally. They know they made it up.

                                Talking to a figment of your imagination is talking to yourself. The mind that's asking is the same mind that's answering. Same in religion/prayer.

                                That's true. It probably can't be proven that you are just internally commuicating with yourself, you'd have to figure that out for yourself.
                                1 Cor 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

                                John 8:47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.

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