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Thread: Where Science and Gnosticism Meet

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    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
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    Where Science and Gnosticism Meet

    Do these two opposites have any unified fronts?

    The link can be found here.

    ------

    Do these two contradictory views have anything in common? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    Gnosticism was one of the first great heresies of Christianity. Since the time of Plato, the material world had been downplayed in comparison to the immaterial world. Gnosticism continued this and it had a real problem with Christianity. Christianity held that God became incarnate in a body. Gnosticism was the view that all of matter was evil. When it met Christianity, it tried to say Jesus*came to set us free from the lesser evil god who created matter and that lesser evil god was the God of the Old Testament.

    Today, we have a movement that seems to be quite different. This is the idea that science is the supreme gateway to truth and science studies the material world. The material world is the real one and we need to get past any mention of anything that is so-called supernatural. (I question the use of the term)

    I have been reading Nancy Pearcey's excellent book*Love Thy Body*and started thinking about this. I can't claim credit for everything then as her writing has been something that got my mind thinking about this. There will be a review of the book when I'm done and she is going to be on my show later this month.

    Interestingly, where all of these meet is always connected with sex in some way. At this point, many of our friends in the sciences suddenly start to deny science. Let's take a look at how.

    Abortion is one of the first ones. If we look at the scientific evidence of what is in the womb, we have a human being. However, this is something very inconvenient for many people since it interferes with free sex and other such things, so something has to be done. Well, it might be a human, but it's not a person. Scientific basis for the difference between a human being and a human person? It doesn't exist. All of a sudden, many of our skeptical friends promoting abortion are interested in metaphysics and philosophy.*

    The next area is in homosexuality. You don't have to be a super genius to tell that the man and the woman go together sexually. Simply put, A goes into B very well. Yet once again, we have an anti-scientific mindset going on here. Now I have no problem with people wanting to do research to see if there is anything genetic that leads to homosexuality or a proclivity to it, but there is one problem and one that Pearcey brings out very well.

    When a person abandons a straight orientation and goes to a homosexual one, they are said to have found their true selves. Keep in mind that when doing this, they can sometimes leave behind a spouse and kids in tears and broken, but they do it anyway. This is looked at with applause as the person has realized who they really are. If a person ever abandons a homosexual orientation for a straight one or is a homosexual but lives married to someone of the opposite sex, they are said to loathe themselves and be denying themselves. Never are they celebrated as having found their true selves.

    Question. What is the scientific test for the true self? Answer. There isn't one. How is it known? It is based on how the person feels and on the reigning paradigm of the moment.

    Despite all of this, I really consider the last one the most bizarre.

    Now we get to the transgender movement. Often in apologetics, I find it amazing the things that one has to defend that one never thought they would have to defend. A few years ago I was stunned that we now have to actually convince people marriage is between a man and a woman. Today, we have to convince them that the man and the woman really are the man and the woman. The sign of bigotry today is to say that a man is actually a man.

    In all other cases, we could look at the body and see how it works, but even here, we can just look and see what the body is. All the evidence that is physical for someone says that their DNA is male (or female) and their body is that of a male. This is the true scientific evidence. Unfortunately, all of this is denied. Why? The feelings contradict.

    When these two contradict, one will have to be worked on and even if never fully altered, it will need to come under the control of the other. It will either be the body that determines the identity and we change the feelings, or it will be the feelings that determine the identity and we change the body. It is quite amazing that many in the scientific community, particularly internet atheists, think that the feelings are where the person's true identity lies and you must change all the material reality to fit their feelings.

    In this, they are like the Gnostics of old. We could say that transgenderism might be nothing new. It is just an old heresy wrapped up in new terminology and presented in a new way. Deny the reality of matter and go with the immaterial. The person's feelings reign supreme.

    Where does this end? Who knows. It was bizarre enough to redefine marriage, but now a person's feelings are given more and more precedence and once that starts, I really don't know how that will end.

    Keep in mind, none of this says anything about how we treat such people in itself. People who are struggling with these issues do need to be treated with love and compassion. However, they also need to be worked with to accept reality. One will never have good results if they try to go against reality.*

    It's also interesting that Christians that hold to a biblical view on all of these are the ones that are going with the science and yet, we're seen as bigots for doing that. Could it possibly be that those who want to champion science are just extremely selective where they want to champion it? Could it be some really aren't interested in following the evidence where it leads?

    How we deal with this is what Pearcey tells us to do. Love thy body. The body is not an evil thing. It is a gift to be treasured and cherished. This is especially so since in Christianity, it is the temple of the Holy Spirit and God Himself became incarnated in a body.

    Consider this thought. Suppose that Jesus is crucified and dies and is buried. The tomb is found empty on Sunday, but instead, Jesus is now appearing as a woman named Joanna. This would be something unusual, but I don't think we could call it Christianity anymore. It would deny that there is something essential to the body. It can be changed to be whatever you want. It would bring into question the notion of identity. Was this truly Jesus? Is the fact that He was a man something accidental to who he is as a person or is the identity something that can be changed?

    Throughout the incarnation, Jesus was Jesus and the body that went down came up again. Yes, it was new and glorified, but it was still the body of Jesus. So it is for us. Our bodies are not accidents. They are the first line of evidence we have of who we are. Start with the feelings and you can justify most any belief. Start with the body and you're limited to reality.

    I think I'll go with reality.

    I have no wish to be a science-denier.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  2. Amen Jedidiah, TheWall, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
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    tWebber TheWall's Avatar
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    Body and soul are linked. How they are linked we can not say. I wonder sometimes if the human desire to become immortal is the desire to be free from evil twisted into a denial of evil.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWall View Post
    Body and soul are linked. How they are linked we can not say. I wonder sometimes if the human desire to become immortal is the desire to be free from evil twisted into a denial of evil.
    Actually the link between body and soul is found in Leviticus 17:11, ". . . For the life[i.e. soul] of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. . . ." Compare James 2:26, ". . . the body without the spirit is dead, . . ."
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Actually the link between body and soul is found in Leviticus 17:11, ". . . For the life[i.e. soul] of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. . . ." Compare James 2:26, ". . . the body without the spirit is dead, . . ."
    so if someone has a blood transfusion they also have a new soul?

  6. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    so if someone has a blood transfusion they also have a new soul?
    No. but it is the biblical basis for justification for blood transfusion in order to keep another's own soul in his own body. It is by blood by which our body is animated by our soul (". . . natural body . . ."). Whereas our resurrected flesh and bone body does not have blood but is animated instead by way of God's Spirit making our resurrected body to be a ". . . spiritual body . . . " (Romans 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:35, 44, 50; Philippians 3:21).
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    No. but it is the biblical basis for justification for blood transfusion in order to keep another's own soul in his own body. It is by blood by which our body is animated by our soul (". . . natural body . . ."). Whereas our resurrected flesh and bone body does not have blood but is animated instead by way of God's Spirit making our resurrected body to be a ". . . spiritual body . . . " (Romans 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:35, 44, 50; Philippians 3:21).
    What??? The bible says that the life is in the blood, not the soul. and that is true. without blood there is no life. The soul is immaterial, it is not "stored" in some part of the body. That's moronic. You ARE a soul.

    The bible also never mentions blood transfusions.

    I mean, you might as well argue that your breath is your soul. After all Genesis says:

    King James Bible
    And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    And the greek word for "spirit" is "pneuma" which means "breath" or "air"

    And it nowhere says that the resurrected body won't have blood. You are reading into the text what is not there.

  9. Amen Christianbookworm, Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    What??? The bible says that the life is in the blood, not the soul. and that is true. without blood there is no life. The soul is immaterial, it is not "stored" in some part of the body. That's moronic. You ARE a soul.

    The bible also never mentions blood transfusions.

    I mean, you might as well argue that your breath is your soul. After all Genesis says:

    King James Bible
    And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    And the greek word for "spirit" is "pneuma" which means "breath" or "air"

    And it nowhere says that the resurrected body won't have blood. You are reading into the text what is not there.
    You can believe what you want. The man Jesus the Christ (Hebrews 13:8 btw) is now as a flesh and bone man in heaven, is He not? (Luke 24:39; Acts 1:8-11). And it is written, ". . . flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. . . ." (1 Corinthians 15:50.) Check Leviticus 17:11 in the Blue letter Bible, as to what word is translated "life." Should you be so inclined, or not.

    Also Jesus is now in body and soul, as I understand His death and resurrection. And yes, I too believe the soul is the person.
    Last edited by 37818; 01-22-2018 at 02:23 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    You can believe what you want. The man Jesus the Christ (Hebrews 13:8 btw) is now as a flesh and bone man in heaven, is He not? (Luke 24:39; Acts 1:8-11). And it is written, ". . . flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. . . ." (1 Corinthians 15:50.) Check Leviticus 17:11 in the Blue letter Bible, as to what word is translated "life." Should you be so inclined, or not.

    Also Jesus is now in body and soul, as I understand His death and resurrection. And yes, I too believe the soul is the person.
    So if you think that 'flesh and bone' means that there is no blood, then you must think that 'flesh and blood' means there is no bones. How do you walk around without bones?

    Flesh and blood is an expression meaning a physical body and specifically "mortal" in that context. It is not literally blood and flesh. otherwise "flesh" would not be in heaven either, eh? it said FLESH and blood.

    Flesh and bone is a similar expression meaning the same thing, a physical body.

    We will have the same sorts of bodies that Adam and Eve had before the fall: completely human and immortal, but having flesh, bones, and blood.


    Also if you think the soul is in the blood, then you must think we will have no soul in heaven because we won't have any blood. Make up your mind.

  12. Amen Christianbookworm amen'd this post.
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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    So if you think that 'flesh and bone' means that there is no blood, then you must think that 'flesh and blood' means there is no bones. How do you walk around without bones?
    No. That does not follow. Oh, but that. I guess, is your logic.

    Flesh and blood is an expression meaning a physical body and specifically "mortal" in that context. It is not literally blood and flesh. otherwise "flesh" would not be in heaven either, eh? it said FLESH and blood.
    Just like a good JW argument that Jesus' body is gone. He is a spirit being in Heaven. Right?

    Flesh and bone is a similar expression meaning the same thing, a physical body.
    A body is physical. Which you seem not to get.

    We will have the same sorts of bodies that Adam and Eve had before the fall: completely human and immortal, but having flesh, bones, and blood.
    Before the fall Adam and Eve were mortal. They died that day. Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:4; The Devil being a liar and a murderer, John 8:44.

    Also if you think the soul is in the blood, then you must think we will have no soul in heaven because we won't have any blood. Make up your mind.
    No. You either did not read or did not understand what I wrote. The argument I made is the natural body is animated by soul being in the blood, whereas the spiritual body (I should state with soul, that is, the person) is animated by God's Spirit (Romans 8:11).

    I cannot make you understand this.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    No. That does not follow. Oh, but that. I guess, is your logic.
    no it is YOUR logic. You think that because it doesn't say "blood" in "flesh and bone" that there is no blood. So according to the same logic, when they say "flesh and blood" they don't mention bone so there must be no bones.

    Just like a good JW argument that Jesus' body is gone. He is a spirit being in Heaven. Right?
    no. Just that if it literally means that Flesh and Blood can't inherit heaven, then not only can there be no blood, there can be no flesh. Again, it is using YOUR logic.

    A body is physical. Which you seem not to get.
    And blood is part of the body, just like muscle, bone, nerves, etc.
    Before the fall Adam and Eve were mortal. They died that day. Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:4; The Devil being a liar and a murderer, John 8:44.
    They were IMMORTAL until they sinned, then they became mortal and sinful. They didn't suddenly get blood. They had it all along.

    No. You either did not read or did not understand what I wrote. The argument I made is the natural body is animated by soul being in the blood, whereas the spiritual body (I should state with soul, that is, the person) is animated by God's Spirit (Romans 8:11).

    I cannot make you understand this.
    We are indwelt by the Holy Spirit NOW. But we still have blood. Your argument is dumb and overly literal.

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