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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

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Church Government, or How Shall we Govern Ourselves?

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  • #16
    @Thoughtful Monk, I agree that there is no cut and dry "winner" but I still wanted to see the battle so to speak.

    @OBP Do you disagree with those particular readings of Scripture?

    @Truthseeker Do you mean as a thought experiment? That sounds like it could be fun.
    Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
      @Truthseeker Do you mean as a thought experiment? That sounds like it could be fun.
      It's generally a good idea to agree on definitions when choosing among options.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
        @OBP Do you disagree with those particular readings of Scripture?
        It would be kinda tough to agree with both, don't you think? IMO using scripture alone to determine church government is unlikely to arrive at a definitive answer, because it's only peripherally addressed. I think it's telling that the first groups to abandon the episcopal model were quite obviously heretics.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
          Pentecost, perhaps you should define the Episcopalian, Presbyterian, and Congregational forms with particular attention to the differences between them.
          Congregationalists choose their own pastors. Episcopalians have local pastors appointed by their regional supervisors. Presbyterians require that local church pastors be both elected by the local church and also certified as qualified by the regional association of churches.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by RBerman View Post
            Congregationalists choose their own pastors. Episcopalians have local pastors appointed by their regional supervisors. Presbyterians require that local church pastors be both elected by the local church and also certified as qualified by the regional association of churches.
            I would guess that in practice, there is not much difference between congregationalism and Presbyterianism as compared to those between episcopalianism and the other 2 forms. The better qualified, as deemed by the congregation, the more likely to become pastor.
            The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

            [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
              I would guess that in practice, there is not much difference between congregationalism and Presbyterianism as compared to those between episcopalianism and the other 2 forms. The better qualified, as deemed by the congregation, the more likely to become pastor.
              What the congregation wants to hear is not necessarily what the congregation needs to hear.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                What the congregation wants to hear is not necessarily what the congregation needs to hear.
                Amen.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                  I would guess that in practice, there is not much difference between congregationalism and Presbyterianism as compared to those between episcopalianism and the other 2 forms. The better qualified, as deemed by the congregation, the more likely to become pastor.
                  Certainly both those two forms of government seek the consent of the governed directly in establishing the qualifications of their local shepherd. Presbyterianism has the added hurdle/safeguard of requiring approval of pastoral leadership beyond the local church.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                    Certainly both those two forms of government seek the consent of the governed directly in establishing the qualifications of their local shepherd. Presbyterianism has the added hurdle/safeguard of requiring approval of pastoral leadership beyond the local church.
                    My experience with Presbyterianism (or at least PC(USA)) is the beyond the local church group is usually what leads the local church down the road to Hell.
                    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                      My experience with Presbyterianism (or at least PC(USA)) is the beyond the local church group is usually what leads the local church down the road to Hell.
                      It can be. The PCUSA has a delegated national assembly, so that not every church is represented. With a delegated assembly such as they have, control of the nominating committee of a Presbytery or Synod means control of which churches get to participate at the national level. That is why at the national level, PCUSA says all sorts of things that make so many local churches feel the urge to jump ship for other denominations.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        What the congregation wants to hear is not necessarily what the congregation needs to hear.
                        Yes. On the other hand, R. Catholics are exceedingly well versed in the Bible and able to quote it accurately no matter how much it pains people.
                        The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                        [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                          My experience with Presbyterianism (or at least PC(USA)) is the beyond the local church group is usually what leads the local church down the road to Hell.
                          Possibly yet another example of the world letting a small group have more power than usual. I mean, that usually turns out to be a bad idea. For example, isn't the RCC one of the wealthiest groups in the world? At least that's what I remember from my reading.
                          The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                          [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                            Possibly yet another example of the world letting a small group have more power than usual. I mean, that usually turns out to be a bad idea. For example, isn't the RCC one of the wealthiest groups in the world? At least that's what I remember from my reading.
                            non sequitur
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              non sequitur
                              Okay, so you accept the assertion that the RCC is one of the wealthiest groups in the world. Perhaps the reason you said non sequitur is that being wealthy is not necessarily evil. I let you have that point. However, one needs to know how that wealth came to be in the hands of the RCC. Maybe 100% kosher, but how do we know?
                              The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                              [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                                Okay, so you accept the assertion that the RCC is one of the wealthiest groups in the world.
                                It's also one of the largest groups in the world.
                                Perhaps the reason you said non sequitur is that being wealthy is not necessarily evil. I let you have that point.
                                Thank you.
                                However, one needs to know how that wealth came to be in the hands of the RCC. Maybe 100% kosher, but how do we know?
                                I'm guessing it was mostly given to them, like any other church. They've had a couple thousand years of collections, after all.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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