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Leftists Never Have Enough Of Our Money...

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  • #31
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    If they were being replaced as fast as they were leaving nobody would be concerned. Simple as that.
    That's an assumption, Rogue, not an argument backed with facts. News stories are written because the magazines want eyeballs, so sensational titles are nothing new, nor are slanted articles that only present one side of an argument.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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    • #32
      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      The answer to that appears to be in the first article you posted. The Fedeeral tax cut disproportionately benefits large businesses and the wealthy, and they are looking to more evenly balance the scales by harvesting some of that gain to use for programs for the poor/disenfranchised. Whether the initiative passes remains to be seen.



      You are welcome to your perspective, Sparko. I make an effort to dig out both sides of issues when and where the information is available. When someone presents one side of an argument, as is being done by many here, I simply don't swallow it whole. If that makes me "blind," in your eyes, so be it. You might note, however, that your characterization of my point misses what I actually said by a good deal. I did not say "no one is leaving." I said there is a myth about wholesale flight due to taxes that is well documented, the effect is actually fairly slight and the evidence doe snot even show that the flight is unambiguously tied to taxes. I also noted that the other side, what business are coming in and what new ones are starting, is completely missing from the discussion.
      I noticed another trend. Whenever someone presents anything contrary, you seem to dismiss it as "opinion" or saying "that an example is not evidence" or some such. Yet you expect us to accept everything you say as fact. You clearly said that companies leaving California was mostly myth. You just dismissed the idea out of hand as just some sort of rumor without basis. When rogue came back and gave you evidence of thousands of companies leaving because of taxes you just dismissed that also. Nothing puts a dent in your narrative. When pointed out that you were wrong you now try to minimize and qualify what you said as "a myth about wholesale flight due to taxes that is well documented" and claim while true, it is "very slight"


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      • #33
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        I noticed another trend. Whenever someone presents anything contrary, you seem to dismiss it as "opinion" or saying "that an example is not evidence" or some such.
        When people cite opinion as fact, I call them on it. When people provide an example as an argument, I call them on it. Hopefully, the same will be done to me if and when I do those things. If you think I HAVE done those things, please point to the post so I can look at it.

        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Yet you expect us to accept everything you say as fact.
        I have no such expectations. I put forward the information I find, explain what it says to me, and leave others to make their own decisions. What you accept or do not accept is not my priority. What I accept and do not accept is.

        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        You clearly said that companies leaving California was mostly myth.
        What I dismissed was the myth that companies/individuals flee states due to taxation issues. Some do, but it is not a wholesale flight, nor does there appear to be data that affirms it is even substantial flight. If you have data that says otherwise, please present it. If you think I said otherwise, please provide the link to the post so I can look at it.

        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        You just dismissed the idea out of hand as just some sort of rumor without basis. When rogue came back and gave you evidence of thousands of companies leaving because of taxes you just dismissed that also.
        Rogue came back with multiple articles about businesses leaving. What was missing were statistics around what percentage this represents, how many companies were moving in, how many new companies are being born. In other words, he provided a stories of examples, not data to show there is a substantial problem. Examples are not arguments.

        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Nothing puts a dent in your narrative. When pointed out that you were wrong you now try to minimize and qualify what you said as "a myth about wholesale flight due to taxes that is well documented" and claim while true, it is "very slight"
        Yes, the data that has been dug up shows that the "flight" is fairly low, statistically. I have not seen any data to convince me otherwise. If you have some, I'd be happy to look at it. Meanwhile, I am informed by studies like this one: https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-...ight-is-a-myth which shows that the reverse is actually true (at least for individuals). Then there's this story from Fox: http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/...n-is-myth.html which cites a 2011 study. Both of these have to do with households, not businesses. I have not found data specific to businesses, so I cannot say they aren't fleeing, but I can say that the evidence provided here thus far is not adequate to claim they are. And if this is a myth for individuals, I have to wonder how much it is a myth for businesses as well.

        As for my "narrative," Sparko, I have changed my position on several things since visiting this site, on the strength of the argument being made. When the argument convinces, I shift my views. When it does not, I explain why it does not.
        Last edited by carpedm9587; 01-22-2018, 11:48 AM.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          So we have correlation. I'd like to see causation...
          Well, as Hume point out, one can never 'see' causation, one can only infer it.

          In practice, causation is going to be pretty hard to determine for this type of thing. I mean, you could take anecdotes like Kansas that cut taxes and had things go terribly as a result. But you probably can't get good quality data on enough of that sort of thing to provide strong proof of causation.

          However, the existence of a correlation seems suggestive. At minimum it would seem to suggest that 'high'-taxes (we are, of course still talking in the <50% of GDP range, so they are actually in the lower half of any scale that goes from zero-government libertarianism to 100% state-run communism) don't destroy countries / states. So it would seem reasonable evidence that the talking-point of a few of the conservatives in this thread and elsewhere ("High taxes DeStrOy thE EcOnoMy!!!") are bunk, and that economies can and do survive just fine (and, in fact, appear to do better) with higher rates of taxation.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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