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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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Jesus didn't want to save everyone?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    And nearly(can't say 2000 years until the 2030's) 2000 years of brothers and sisters discussing things! And there's still stuff we may want to ask Jesus about when we see Him.
    As my theology professor in college always used to say, "One day, God is going to correct everybody's theology."
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      As my theology professor in college always used to say, "One day, God is going to correct everybody's theology."
      If he does that, he'll be accused of heresy (again).
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #18
        Why? The religious leaders didn't realize Who Jesus was. No one would dare to accuse Him of heresy when His divine nature is made clear to all.
        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
          I recently came across something written by someone who has a divinity masters and is ordained.

          "And as soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. 11 And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12 in order that while seeing, they may see and not perceive; and while hearing, they may hear and not understand lest they return and be forgiven," (Mark 4:10-12).

          Jesus clearly tells his followers that the reason he is speaking in parables is so people will not be forgiven. Clearly, it is his intent that they be judged instead of forgiven.

          ------

          Is this guy right?

          Thanks.
          He is wrong. He is missing the context of Jesus' words - namely, Jesus is referring to Isaiah 6, Isaiah 44, Psalm 115, and Psalm 135. Jesus isn't saying that he's speaking in parables in order that people not understand him. He's saying that the people do not understand because they are like lifeless idols. They do not see/hear/understand because they are spiritually dead - they cannot.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            He is wrong. He is missing the context of Jesus' words - namely, Jesus is referring to Isaiah 6, Isaiah 44, Psalm 115, and Psalm 135. Jesus isn't saying that he's speaking in parables in order that people not understand him. He's saying that the people do not understand because they are like lifeless idols. They do not see/hear/understand because they are spiritually dead - they cannot.
            They hardened their hearts -- God didn't do it -- they did it. This is in reference to Jesus' message. They couldn't or wouldn't accept it.

            In fact, the Jewish leaders this:

            Matthew 12:22-32Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
            A House Divided
            22 Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and unable to speak was brought to Him. He healed him, so that the man[a] could both speak and see. 23 And all the crowds were astounded and said, “Perhaps this is the Son of David!”

            24 When the Pharisees heard this, they said, “The man drives out demons only by Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons.”

            If they had been open to Jesus' claims they would have turned and been saved.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
              They hardened their hearts -- God didn't do it -- they did it.
              Actually, God hardened their hearts through Isaiah, in the passage being quoted:

              “Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
              Their ears dull,
              And their eyes dim,
              Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
              Hear with their ears,
              Understand with their hearts,
              And return and be healed.” (Isa. 6:10)

              Also, it is clearly God who is doing the hardening in the parallel passage in John:


              "He has blinded their eyes
              and hardened their hearts,
              so they can neither see with their eyes,
              nor understand with their hearts,
              nor turn—and I would heal them." (Jn 12:40–41)

              Isaiah then asks "for how long, oh Lord?" and we may also ask how long this judgement would persist.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                Actually, God hardened their hearts through Isaiah, in the passage being quoted:

                “Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
                Their ears dull,
                And their eyes dim,
                Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
                Hear with their ears,
                Understand with their hearts,
                And return and be healed.” (Isa. 6:10)

                Also, it is clearly God who is doing the hardening in the parallel passage in John:


                "He has blinded their eyes
                and hardened their hearts,
                so they can neither see with their eyes,
                nor understand with their hearts,
                nor turn—and I would heal them." (Jn 12:40–41)

                Isaiah then asks "for how long, oh Lord?" and we may also ask how long this judgement would persist.

                Blessings,
                Lee
                Is it figurative, or literal? If I say, "My brother made me angry!" what does this mean? That my brother somehow usurped my freewill?
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  Is it figurative, or literal? If I say, "My brother made me angry!" what does this mean? That my brother somehow usurped my freewill?
                  That does not at all compare to the situation in the text, so your question does not make much sence. But since you are a Christian I can understand your wish to avoid what the text actually says. It is just that we are not that easy to fool. Try to read the text again and see what it actually says and not what you would wish it said.
                  "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Chuckles View Post
                    That does not at all compare to the situation in the text...
                    Asserted without proof.

                    Thanks for playing.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      Asserted without proof.

                      Thanks for playing.
                      You are the one who is playing. I asked you to read the text again but it seems you did not. So let me help. Take a look at this part:

                      "He has blinded their eyes
                      and hardened their hearts,
                      so they can neither see with their eyes,
                      nor understand with their hearts, [...]"

                      This is a situation in which something is actively done to a seemingly non-active subject. I did not blind my own eyes, he did. I did not harden my own heart, he did. If the point was different from that, then why does the text not say anything about it. Why do we need Mountain Man to tell us the true meaning of the words? Why is that not in the Bible? Why does the text give the impression that God is actually doing this if the truth is that he is not, or if the truth is that this is somehow based on human reaction to God. How can humans even be held accountable for how they react to God's call if the cannot see with their eyes or understand with their hearts? Taking about free will about situations you do not even understand is absurd.

                      So, you see, there is no playing on my side. I just happen to read what the text says and not what some people would wish it said because, really, they don't believe what the Bible actually says but they have come up with a compromise interpretation.
                      Last edited by Charles; 01-26-2018, 09:08 AM.
                      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        Actually, God hardened their hearts through Isaiah, in the passage being quoted:

                        “Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
                        Their ears dull,
                        And their eyes dim,
                        Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
                        Hear with their ears,
                        Understand with their hearts,
                        And return and be healed.” (Isa. 6:10)

                        Also, it is clearly God who is doing the hardening in the parallel passage in John:


                        "He has blinded their eyes
                        and hardened their hearts,
                        so they can neither see with their eyes,
                        nor understand with their hearts,
                        nor turn—and I would heal them." (Jn 12:40–41)

                        Isaiah then asks "for how long, oh Lord?" and we may also ask how long this judgement would persist.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        So God sends the Messiah Jesus to save mankind and then God hardens the hearts of corporate Israel so they will not accept Jesus' message???
                        Last edited by Christian3; 01-26-2018, 09:12 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Chuckles View Post
                          You are the one who is playing. I asked you to read the text again but it seems you did not. So let me help. Take a look at this part...
                          How about you take a look at the part where God is speaking to Isaiah in a vision, and that the language throughout is metaphorical and not literal?

                          Unless you're prepared to argue that an angel literally scalded Isaiah's lips with a red hot coal.

                          I would say you're smarter than this, but I'm not convinced I would be speaking the truth.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            How about you take a look at the part where God is speaking to Isaiah in a vision, and that the language throughout is metaphorical and not literal?

                            Unless you're prepared to argue that an angel literally scalded Isaiah's lips with a red hot coal.

                            I would say you're smarter than this, but I'm not convinced I would be speaking the truth.
                            Back to the text again. No playing around here:

                            "He has blinded their eyes
                            and hardened their hearts,
                            so they can neither see with their eyes,
                            nor understand with their hearts,"

                            Of course the use of eyes and hearts are metaphorical, I never rejected that. But what is a meaningful understanding of the metaphorical language? God has blinded their eyes but somehow they can still see? He has hardened their hearts, but their hearts are still soft and somehow open to God? They can neither see nor understand, but yet they can somehow be held accountable for not being able to see or understand?

                            You are yet to come up with a meaningful explanation of why this language is used about a free will situation in which a person could choose differently. The language and metaphors used give the opposite impression.

                            And I suspect we will never get that explanation...
                            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Charles View Post
                              Back to the text again.
                              But ignoring the context again.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                But ignoring the context again.
                                Nope. I am looking at how those metaphors can be interpreted meaningfully. Funny that you are all trying to avoid them.
                                "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                                Comment

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