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Thread: Jesus didn't want to save everyone?

  1. #21
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    They hardened their hearts -- God didn't do it -- they did it.
    Actually, God hardened their hearts through Isaiah, in the passage being quoted:

    “Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
    Their ears dull,
    And their eyes dim,
    Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    Hear with their ears,
    Understand with their hearts,
    And return and be healed.” (Isa. 6:10)

    Also, it is clearly God who is doing the hardening in the parallel passage in John:


    "He has blinded their eyes
    and hardened their hearts,
    so they can neither see with their eyes,
    nor understand with their hearts,
    nor turn—and I would heal them." (Jn 12:40–41)

    Isaiah then asks "for how long, oh Lord?" and we may also ask how long this judgement would persist.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  2. #22
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Actually, God hardened their hearts through Isaiah, in the passage being quoted:

    “Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
    Their ears dull,
    And their eyes dim,
    Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    Hear with their ears,
    Understand with their hearts,
    And return and be healed.” (Isa. 6:10)

    Also, it is clearly God who is doing the hardening in the parallel passage in John:


    "He has blinded their eyes
    and hardened their hearts,
    so they can neither see with their eyes,
    nor understand with their hearts,
    nor turn—and I would heal them." (Jn 12:40–41)

    Isaiah then asks "for how long, oh Lord?" and we may also ask how long this judgement would persist.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Is it figurative, or literal? If I say, "My brother made me angry!" what does this mean? That my brother somehow usurped my freewill?
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  3. Amen OU812 amen'd this post.
  4. #23
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Is it figurative, or literal? If I say, "My brother made me angry!" what does this mean? That my brother somehow usurped my freewill?
    That does not at all compare to the situation in the text, so your question does not make much sence. But since you are a Christian I can understand your wish to avoid what the text actually says. It is just that we are not that easy to fool. Try to read the text again and see what it actually says and not what you would wish it said.

  5. #24
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuckles View Post
    That does not at all compare to the situation in the text...
    Asserted without proof.

    Thanks for playing.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  6. #25
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Asserted without proof.

    Thanks for playing.
    You are the one who is playing. I asked you to read the text again but it seems you did not. So let me help. Take a look at this part:

    "He has blinded their eyes
    and hardened their hearts,
    so they can neither see with their eyes,
    nor understand with their hearts, [...]"

    This is a situation in which something is actively done to a seemingly non-active subject. I did not blind my own eyes, he did. I did not harden my own heart, he did. If the point was different from that, then why does the text not say anything about it. Why do we need Mountain Man to tell us the true meaning of the words? Why is that not in the Bible? Why does the text give the impression that God is actually doing this if the truth is that he is not, or if the truth is that this is somehow based on human reaction to God. How can humans even be held accountable for how they react to God's call if the cannot see with their eyes or understand with their hearts? Taking about free will about situations you do not even understand is absurd.

    So, you see, there is no playing on my side. I just happen to read what the text says and not what some people would wish it said because, really, they don't believe what the Bible actually says but they have come up with a compromise interpretation.
    Last edited by Charles; 01-26-2018 at 03:08 PM.

  7. #26
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Actually, God hardened their hearts through Isaiah, in the passage being quoted:

    “Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
    Their ears dull,
    And their eyes dim,
    Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    Hear with their ears,
    Understand with their hearts,
    And return and be healed.” (Isa. 6:10)

    Also, it is clearly God who is doing the hardening in the parallel passage in John:


    "He has blinded their eyes
    and hardened their hearts,
    so they can neither see with their eyes,
    nor understand with their hearts,
    nor turn—and I would heal them." (Jn 12:40–41)

    Isaiah then asks "for how long, oh Lord?" and we may also ask how long this judgement would persist.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    So God sends the Messiah Jesus to save mankind and then God hardens the hearts of corporate Israel so they will not accept Jesus' message???
    Last edited by Christian3; 01-26-2018 at 03:12 PM.

  8. #27
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuckles View Post
    You are the one who is playing. I asked you to read the text again but it seems you did not. So let me help. Take a look at this part...
    How about you take a look at the part where God is speaking to Isaiah in a vision, and that the language throughout is metaphorical and not literal?

    Unless you're prepared to argue that an angel literally scalded Isaiah's lips with a red hot coal.

    I would say you're smarter than this, but I'm not convinced I would be speaking the truth.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  9. #28
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    How about you take a look at the part where God is speaking to Isaiah in a vision, and that the language throughout is metaphorical and not literal?

    Unless you're prepared to argue that an angel literally scalded Isaiah's lips with a red hot coal.

    I would say you're smarter than this, but I'm not convinced I would be speaking the truth.
    Back to the text again. No playing around here:

    "He has blinded their eyes
    and hardened their hearts,
    so they can neither see with their eyes,
    nor understand with their hearts,"

    Of course the use of eyes and hearts are metaphorical, I never rejected that. But what is a meaningful understanding of the metaphorical language? God has blinded their eyes but somehow they can still see? He has hardened their hearts, but their hearts are still soft and somehow open to God? They can neither see nor understand, but yet they can somehow be held accountable for not being able to see or understand?

    You are yet to come up with a meaningful explanation of why this language is used about a free will situation in which a person could choose differently. The language and metaphors used give the opposite impression.

    And I suspect we will never get that explanation...

  10. #29
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    Back to the text again.
    But ignoring the context again.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  11. Amen Mountain Man, Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  12. #30
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    But ignoring the context again.
    Nope. I am looking at how those metaphors can be interpreted meaningfully. Funny that you are all trying to avoid them.

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