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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Jesus didn't want to save everyone?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Charles View Post
    Back to the text again. No playing around here:

    "He has blinded their eyes
    and hardened their hearts,
    so they can neither see with their eyes,
    nor understand with their hearts,"

    Of course the use of eyes and hearts are metaphorical, I never rejected that. But what is a meaningful understanding of the metaphorical language? God has blinded their eyes but somehow they can still see? He has hardened their hearts, but their hearts are still soft and somehow open to God? They can neither see nor understand, but yet they can somehow be held accountable for not being able to see or understand?

    You are yet to come up with a meaningful explanation of why this language is used about a free will situation in which a person could choose differently. The language and metaphors used give the opposite impression.

    And I suspect we will never get that explanation...
    You concede that the language is metaphorical... and then proceed to interpret it literally.

    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Charles View Post
      Nope. I am looking at how those metaphors can be interpreted meaningfully. Funny that you are all trying to avoid them.
      By mentioning context, I'm "trying to avoid" the actual words?
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        You concede that the language is metaphorical... and then proceed to interpret it literally.

        Nope. That is not true. I just ask what a meaningfull interpretation of those metaphors could be if it is not to contradict the metaphoric language itself. And you are yet to adress this challenge.
        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          By mentioning context, I'm "trying to avoid" the actual words?
          It seems so since you don't use the context pointed to in order to adress the points I have about the direction in which the metaphors point. Both you and Mountain Man try to talk about anything but an actual intepretation of those words even when pointing to the context there is no explanation of why those expressions are used and how that changes the impression they seem to give.
          "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Charles View Post
            It seems so since you don't use the context pointed to in order to adress the points I have about the direction in which the metaphors point. Both you and Mountain Man try to talk about anything but an actual intepretation of those words even when pointing to the context there is no explanation of why those expressions are used and how that changes the impression they seem to give.
            Just letting you have all the rope you need.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Just letting you have all the rope you need.
              I am sorry but I don't see an anwer in that part either.
              "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Charles View Post
                I am sorry but I don't see an anwer in that part either.
                At least you read that one correctly.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Chuckles View Post
                  Nope. That is not true. I just ask what a meaningfull interpretation of those metaphors could be if it is not to contradict the metaphoric language itself. And you are yet to adress this challenge.
                  I did address it, Chuckles. When I say, "My brother made me angry!" what am I saying? When God tells Isaiah to "make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and their eyes blind", what is he saying? Did he suddenly grant Isaiah the power to override their freewill? Of course not.

                  But anyway:

                  And he said, “Go, and say to this people:

                  “‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
                  keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’

                  Make the heart of this people dull,
                  and their ears heavy,
                  and blind their eyes;
                  lest they see with their eyes,
                  and hear with their ears,
                  and understand with their hearts,
                  and turn and be healed.”

                  God told Isaiah to tell the people exactly what was happening. If they continue to reject God's word at that point then it's entirely on them.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                    So God sends the Messiah Jesus to save mankind and then God hardens the hearts of corporate Israel so they will not accept Jesus' message???
                    Yes, the disciples were the ones to whom the message was given, and then later, the message was for all people.

                    “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent..." (Ac 17:30)

                    Though there still is a partial hardening of Israel:

                    "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in..." (Ro 11:25)

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      When I say, "My brother made me angry!" what am I saying?
                      Something different than "My brother made me blind!"

                      Did he suddenly grant Isaiah the power to override their freewill?
                      Yes, make their hearts dull, lest they turn and be healed.

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        Actually, God hardened their hearts through Isaiah, in the passage being quoted:

                        “Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
                        Their ears dull,
                        And their eyes dim,
                        Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
                        Hear with their ears,
                        Understand with their hearts,
                        And return and be healed.” (Isa. 6:10)

                        Also, it is clearly God who is doing the hardening in the parallel passage in John:


                        "He has blinded their eyes
                        and hardened their hearts,
                        so they can neither see with their eyes,
                        nor understand with their hearts,
                        nor turn—and I would heal them." (Jn 12:40–41)

                        Isaiah then asks "for how long, oh Lord?" and we may also ask how long this judgement would persist.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        Commentary in my Jewish Study Bible re Isaiah 6:9-10:

                        "God does not order Isaiah to cause the people to misunderstand; rather, God predicts that they will not achieve understanding in spite of Isaiah's speeches, because the people do not want to acknowledge the truth."

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          Something different than "My brother made me blind!"


                          Yes, make their hearts dull, lest they turn and be healed.

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          Seriously? You think Isaiah was given the power to override people's freewill? Wow.

                          Except that's not what the passage is suggesting. At all. Not even close.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                            Commentary in my Jewish Study Bible re Isaiah 6:9-10:

                            "God does not order Isaiah to cause the people to misunderstand; rather, God predicts that they will not achieve understanding in spite of Isaiah's speeches, because the people do not want to acknowledge the truth."
                            Exactly. Also, when you look at the passage, the part about "Render the people unable to hear, their eyes unable to see, etc." is not God speaking to Isaiah, those are the words God says to tell the people. God tells them what's going to happen and why they won't believe! He is depriving them of any excuse.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              I did address it, Chuckles. When I say, "My brother made me angry!" what am I saying? When God tells Isaiah to "make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and their eyes blind", what is he saying? Did he suddenly grant Isaiah the power to override their freewill? Of course not.

                              But anyway:

                              And he said, “Go, and say to this people:

                              “‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
                              keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’

                              Make the heart of this people dull,
                              and their ears heavy,
                              and blind their eyes;
                              lest they see with their eyes,
                              and hear with their ears,
                              and understand with their hearts,
                              and turn and be healed.”

                              God told Isaiah to tell the people exactly what was happening. If they continue to reject God's word at that point then it's entirely on them.
                              I sure hope you realize that there is a huge difference between being angry and being blind. You are comparing states that do not compare.

                              You talk about people who reject God's words while the text talks about people who are unable to see, hear and understand. That is, they are not even able to reject it because they are unable to understand or percieve it. So, again, the situation you describe is not the situation described in the text but a different situation. If the text is a description of what was happening like you claim then why does it say "Make the heart..." instead of "They are making their hearts...."? Why are those you claim are acting on free will described as completely passive agents. Look at the text again:

                              "He has blinded their eyes
                              and hardened their hearts,
                              so they can neither see with their eyes,
                              nor understand with their hearts,"

                              I find it ironic that believers are the ones who are most eager at rejecting what the actual words in the Bible.
                              "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                                Commentary in my Jewish Study Bible re Isaiah 6:9-10:

                                "God does not order Isaiah to cause the people to misunderstand; rather, God predicts that they will not achieve understanding in spite of Isaiah's speeches, because the people do not want to acknowledge the truth."
                                But one would get the impression God is doing the hardening himself:

                                "He has blinded their eyes
                                and hardened their hearts,
                                so they can neither see with their eyes,
                                nor understand with their hearts,
                                nor turn—and I would heal them."

                                Who is the active part in what is happening here? It clearly says: "He has blinded their eyes" It does not say "They have..."
                                "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                                Comment

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