Originally posted by Charles
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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Jesus didn't want to save everyone?
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Originally posted by Charles View PostNope. I am looking at how those metaphors can be interpreted meaningfully. Funny that you are all trying to avoid them.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostYou concede that the language is metaphorical... and then proceed to interpret it literally.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostBy mentioning context, I'm "trying to avoid" the actual words?
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Originally posted by Charles View PostIt seems so since you don't use the context pointed to in order to adress the points I have about the direction in which the metaphors point. Both you and Mountain Man try to talk about anything but an actual intepretation of those words even when pointing to the context there is no explanation of why those expressions are used and how that changes the impression they seem to give.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Charles View PostI am sorry but I don't see an anwer in that part either.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Chuckles View PostNope. That is not true. I just ask what a meaningfull interpretation of those metaphors could be if it is not to contradict the metaphoric language itself. And you are yet to adress this challenge.
But anyway:
God told Isaiah to tell the people exactly what was happening. If they continue to reject God's word at that point then it's entirely on them.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Christian3 View PostSo God sends the Messiah Jesus to save mankind and then God hardens the hearts of corporate Israel so they will not accept Jesus' message???"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostWhen I say, "My brother made me angry!" what am I saying?
Did he suddenly grant Isaiah the power to override their freewill?
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostSomething different than "My brother made me blind!"
Yes, make their hearts dull, lest they turn and be healed.
Blessings,
Lee
Except that's not what the passage is suggesting. At all. Not even close.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Christian3 View PostCommentary in my Jewish Study Bible re Isaiah 6:9-10:
"God does not order Isaiah to cause the people to misunderstand; rather, God predicts that they will not achieve understanding in spite of Isaiah's speeches, because the people do not want to acknowledge the truth."Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI did address it, Chuckles. When I say, "My brother made me angry!" what am I saying? When God tells Isaiah to "make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and their eyes blind", what is he saying? Did he suddenly grant Isaiah the power to override their freewill? Of course not.
But anyway:
God told Isaiah to tell the people exactly what was happening. If they continue to reject God's word at that point then it's entirely on them.
You talk about people who reject God's words while the text talks about people who are unable to see, hear and understand. That is, they are not even able to reject it because they are unable to understand or percieve it. So, again, the situation you describe is not the situation described in the text but a different situation. If the text is a description of what was happening like you claim then why does it say "Make the heart..." instead of "They are making their hearts...."? Why are those you claim are acting on free will described as completely passive agents. Look at the text again:
"He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,"
I find it ironic that believers are the ones who are most eager at rejecting what the actual words in the Bible.
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Originally posted by Christian3 View PostCommentary in my Jewish Study Bible re Isaiah 6:9-10:
"God does not order Isaiah to cause the people to misunderstand; rather, God predicts that they will not achieve understanding in spite of Isaiah's speeches, because the people do not want to acknowledge the truth."
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