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Thread: Jesus didn't want to save everyone?

  1. #71
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Again, it says they did not believe despite Jesus performing miracles right in front of their noses.
    Yes, it says so. In a book. We skeptics get that.

  2. #72
    Caught in the Matrix
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Yes, that is his intent. Note that this is a quote from Isaiah, and Isaiah asks "for how long?"

    “Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
    Their ears dull,
    And their eyes dim,
    Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    Hear with their ears,
    Understand with their hearts,
    And return and be healed.”

    Then I said, “Lord, how long?” And He answered,
    “Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant,
    Houses are without people
    And the land is utterly desolate, the LORD has removed men far away,
    And the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land." (Is 6:10–12)

    So we may ask how long Jesus had in mind, that this judgment would persist.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Or you could just come to the realization that, man, what a bunch of nonsense I've been taught to believe.
    Last edited by JimL; 01-27-2018 at 11:10 PM.

  3. #73
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, no, the parables were spoken "to hide the truth from those for whom it was not intended" (Vance Havner).

    But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,

    “they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
    and ever hearing but never understanding;
    otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!” (Mk 4:11–12)


    I agree that there is spiritual deadness, but the word, if spoken plainly, could give them life!

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Who is Vance Havner, that I should pay any attention to what he says?

    I disagree that the word, if spoken plainly, could have given them life. When one is forced to confront reality against one's will, the one confronted seldom takes it well.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  4. #74
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Shaver View Post
    Yes, it says so. In a book. We skeptics get that.
    They're not debating the truthfulness of the book in question, but proper interpretation of a particular passage in it. I'm not sure how you're comment is relevant in any way.

  5. Amen Mountain Man amen'd this post.
  6. #75
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I disagree that the word, if spoken plainly, could have given them life. When one is forced to confront reality against one's will, the one confronted seldom takes it well.
    Well, maybe you will subscribe to Origen's opinion?

    Source: Origen

    Sometimes it does not turn out to be an advantage for one to be healed quickly or superficially... Therefore God ... delays the healing of such persons and defers the remedy to a later time.

    © Copyright Original Source


    Or as Isaiah said "for how long, oh Lord?"

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  7. #76
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    2 Peter 3:8[–9][,] New International Version (NIV):

    8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
    Thank you for including the name of the English Bible version for your citation.
    [I]f what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. … The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 Jn 2.24; 5.12, LEB)

    <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>


    Farewell. (Sat., 24 Mar. 2018)

  8. #77
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Charles’ Commentary

    "He has blinded their eyes
    and hardened their hearts,
    so they can neither see with their eyes,
    nor understand with their hearts,"


    God has blinded their eyes but somehow they can still see? He has hardened their hearts, but their hearts are still soft and somehow open to God? They can neither see nor understand, but yet they can somehow be held accountable for not being able to see or understand?

    You are yet to come up with a meaningful explanation of why this language is used about a free will situation in which a person could choose differently. The language and metaphors used give the opposite impression.


    On the face of it, the objection is reasonable, as is Christian3’s challenge (below).

    Citing Christian3
    So, God sends the Messiah Jesus to save mankind and then God hardens the hearts of corporate Israel so they will not accept Jesus' message???


    John is writing to a Jewish audience that is well-versed, or has ready access to people who are well-versed, in Hebrew concepts. The bare bones “He has blinded and hardened” will be sufficient for his purpose, as the audience will interpret the statement against a background of prior knowledge and understanding of the circumstances in which God does such things.


    Paul (Rom 11:5b-8), by contrast, is writing to a predominantly Gentile audience which can’t be expected to have in-depth knowledge and understanding, though it would be reasonable to expect that the audience does have access to people who do. Paul gives a slightly expanded view of the same subject, as part of an explanation of the function of grace. In this passage the people’s blindness (and deafness) are not directly imposed by God, but a condition arising from the stupor imposed by God. Nor would this stupor necessarily be a direct imposition – when God “gives” a negative condition, it is very much a matter of abandoning people to their choices.

    Neither passage provides an in-depth exposition of the circumstances that give rise to blinding and hardening by God’s action, so an investigation of the things that may give rise to such circumstances becomes advisable.

    That God will harden or blind a person (or people) is documented in the Old Testament record. With regard to Pharaoh, Exodus 7:3 foreshadows such action, which is enacted only after a few shots across the bow. Exodus 7:13; 8:15; 8:32 record Pharaoh hardening his own heart, culminating in God hardening Pharaoh’s heart (Exodus 9:12). A summary of those events is given as salutatory warning to Israel (1 Samuel 6:6).
    Note: the English translation of Exodus 7:13 is usually flawed: with the nominative being “heart” and the verb being active, “God hardened Pharaoh’s heart” is incorrect – “Pharaoh’s heart hardened (or rather, “waxed strong”) is correct.

    Take the case of a lay-preacher who misunderstands a particular doctrine, to the point that his belief is diametrically opposed to the facts. So far, he is merely mistaken. Someone takes perhaps two hours to fully explain* the matter to the lay-preacher, who subsequently has a proper understanding. He nonetheless stands behind the pulpit a month or so later and propounds the inaccurate teaching. With that, and because of that, he puts himself in line for blinding and hardening.
    (*run through the relevant passages point by point without explaining them, but rather asking the questions that the points answer, and get the “student” to state the relevant passages’ answers)

    When God acts to make people blind or deaf, or harden their hearts, it is reactive rather than pro-active: a penalty (whether permanent or transitory) for transgressions committed. So, being accountable for the circumstances that gave rise to the imposition of blindness etc. “they can" indeed "somehow be held accountable for not being able to see or understand,” .
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  9. #78
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, maybe you will subscribe to Origen's opinion?

    Source: Origen

    Sometimes it does not turn out to be an advantage for one to be healed quickly or superficially... Therefore God ... delays the healing of such persons and defers the remedy to a later time.

    © Copyright Original Source


    Or as Isaiah said "for how long, oh Lord?"

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to get across here. You're not giving me much context to work with.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  10. #79
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    How about you take a look at the part where God is speaking to Isaiah in a vision, and that the language throughout is metaphorical and not literal?

    Unless you're prepared to argue that an angel literally scalded Isaiah's lips with a red hot coal.

    I would say you're smarter than this, but I'm not convinced I would be speaking the truth.
    The text says nothing about scalding, and does not imply it. Isaiah was seeing a vision, & maybe things can happen in visions that cannot happen in “real life”. Seraphim (and their actions) do not belong to “real life” - they are real entities, but not real in a way that would satisfy a rationalist.

    Where is the metaphor in the chapter ? STM that everything in it can and should be “taken literally”.

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