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Thread: Is this guy left wing or right wing?

  1. #11
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    As has been noted, this has been going around a long time, and it is Hitler. One of the many problems it has is that it mixes views Hitler held at different points in his life into one cohesive whole that doesn't reflect Hitler at any specific point in his life. As such, I found it largely useless when I first read it.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    As has been noted, this has been going around a long time, and it is Hitler. One of the many problems it has is that it mixes views Hitler held at different points in his life into one cohesive whole that doesn't reflect Hitler at any specific point in his life. As such, I found it largely useless when I first read it.
    Not useless, maybe informative on the ways different people can view a complex idea such as an ideology.

    But many of the elements from one point of his life did not completely disappear, but changed slightly, and took a different form in the ideology. We like to simplify the Naziism, but when we do we lose the ability to understand it, and we also lose the ability to see why many did not see it as evil*

    Some writers have pointed out the problem with the right/left dichotomy, which places Nazi fascism as a polar opposite of Soviet communism

    *Have to put this in: I am not advocating Nazi ideologies, just pointing out that many contemporaries saw it differently than we do today.

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    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    This is one reason I prefer to use a 2d-political chart like the kind PoliticalCompass.org uses:



    Hitler and Stalin differed in their economic policies, but not in the dictatorial and authoritarian nature of their rule.

    Loosely speaking most modern politics tends to occur roughly along the diagonal from bottom left to top right of that chart, and so what we think of as the "left" today is the bottom left quadrant while the "right" is the top right quadrant. Relatively little modern politics occurs in either the top left (dictatorial communism) or the bottom right (ideological libertarianism). The chart is helpful to think about in terms of concentration of power - is power to make decisions concentrated in the hands of a few (right-wing) or distributed among many or all people (left-wing)? The horizontal axis is economic power, the vertical axis is political and social power.

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    Maybe the one thing that the left and the right seem to agree on is that Hitler belonged to the other side.
    I want something good to die for to make it beautiful to live.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Maybe the one thing that the left and the right seem to agree on is that Hitler belonged to the other side.
    If Hitler can polarize both sides like that, then clearly he was a centrist.

    Hofstadter's Law: It will always take longer than you expect, even if you take into account Hofstadter's Law.

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  6. Amen Cerebrum123, Teallaura, OU812 amen'd this post.
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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Maybe the one thing that the left and the right seem to agree on is that Hitler belonged to the other side.
    now THAT's funny...
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zymologist View Post
    If Hitler can polarize both sides like that, then clearly he was a centrist.










    JK
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Source: man's description

    He had been something of a bohemian in his youth, and always regarded young people and their idealism as the key to progress and the overcoming of outmoded prejudices. And he was widely admired by the young people of his country, many of whom belonged to organizations devoted to practicing and propagating his teachings. He had a lifelong passion for music, art, and architecture, and was even something of a painter. He rejected what he regarded as petty bourgeois moral hang-ups, and he and his girlfriend "lived together" for years. He counted a number of homosexuals as friends and collaborators, and took the view that a man's personal morals were none of his business; some scholars of his life believe that he himself may have been homosexual or bisexual. He was ahead of his time where a number of contemporary progressive causes are concerned: he disliked smoking, regarding it as a serious danger to public health, and took steps to combat it; he was a vegetarian and animal lover; he enacted tough gun control laws; and he advocated euthanasia for the incurably ill.

    He championed the rights of workers, regarded capitalist society as brutal and unjust, and sought a third way between communism and the free market. In this regard, he and his associates greatly admired the strong steps taken by President Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal to take large-scale economic decision-making out of private hands and put it into those of government planning agencies. His aim was to institute a brand of socialism that avoided the inefficiencies that plagued the Soviet variety, and many former communists found his program highly congenial. He deplored the selfish individualism he took to be endemic to modern Western society, and wanted to replace it with an ethic of self-sacrifice: "As Christ proclaimed 'love one another'," he said, "so our call -- 'people's community,' 'public need before private greed,' 'communally-minded social consciousness' -- rings out.! This call will echo throughout the world!"

    The reference to Christ notwithstanding, he was not personally a Christian, regarding the Catholicism he was baptized into as an irrational superstition. In fact he admired Islam more than Christianity, and he and his policies were highly respected by many of the Muslims of his day. He and his associates had a special distaste for the Catholic Church and, given a choice, preferred modern liberalized Protestantism, taking the view that the best form of Christianity would be one that forsook the traditional other-worldly focus on personal salvation and accommodated itself to the requirements of a program for social justice to be implemented by the state. They also considered the possibility that Christianity might eventually have to be abandoned altogether in favor of a return to paganism, a worldview many of them saw as more humane and truer to the heritage of their people. For he and his associates believed strongly that a people's ethnic and racial heritage was what mattered most. Some endorsed a kind of cultural relativism according to which what is true or false and right or wrong in some sense depends on one's ethnic worldview, and especially on what best promotes the well-being of one's ethnic group

    © Copyright Original Source



    . . . and then what happened when he grew up? Hitler. On the superficial and not meaningful, and this could be one of billion of people from different political perspectives when they mature. It is common for the young to switch.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-25-2018 at 11:07 PM.
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  10. #19
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    This is one reason I prefer to use a 2d-political chart like the kind PoliticalCompass.org uses:



    Hitler and Stalin differed in their economic policies, but not in the dictatorial and authoritarian nature of their rule.

    Loosely speaking most modern politics tends to occur roughly along the diagonal from bottom left to top right of that chart, and so what we think of as the "left" today is the bottom left quadrant while the "right" is the top right quadrant. Relatively little modern politics occurs in either the top left (dictatorial communism) or the bottom right (ideological libertarianism). The chart is helpful to think about in terms of concentration of power - is power to make decisions concentrated in the hands of a few (right-wing) or distributed among many or all people (left-wing)? The horizontal axis is economic power, the vertical axis is political and social power.
    I agree the 2d is a better methodology, but not sure I'd accept that one for this debate.

    Also, a chart is only as good as the data plugged into it - and it's really hard to define political bent with survey data - historical data is easy to skew inadvertently.

  11. #20
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    . . . and then what happened when he grew up? Hitler. On the superficial and not meaningful, and this could be one of billion of people from different political perspectives when they mature. It is common for the young to switch.
    But I some of those ideas were not completely abandoned. So when we get to the question on the influence of socialism on Naziism, different people come to different conclusions. And today's socialists are horrified to think Naziism is was influenced by socialist theories, the communists are horrified to think that it was influenced by communist theories, Capitalists are horrified . . . , biologists are horrified to think Darwin's theories played some role, Christians are horrified to think that Christianity played some role.

    But the one common factor is that we have all sides trying to find the "other side" as the culprit, the one to blame for Naziism. But Naziism was a unique blend of ideologies.

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