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  • #16
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Maybe the one thing that the left and the right seem to agree on is that Hitler belonged to the other side.
    now THAT's funny...
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
      If Hitler can polarize both sides like that, then clearly he was a centrist.










      JK
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Source: man's description

        He had been something of a bohemian in his youth, and always regarded young people and their idealism as the key to progress and the overcoming of outmoded prejudices. And he was widely admired by the young people of his country, many of whom belonged to organizations devoted to practicing and propagating his teachings. He had a lifelong passion for music, art, and architecture, and was even something of a painter. He rejected what he regarded as petty bourgeois moral hang-ups, and he and his girlfriend "lived together" for years. He counted a number of homosexuals as friends and collaborators, and took the view that a man's personal morals were none of his business; some scholars of his life believe that he himself may have been homosexual or bisexual. He was ahead of his time where a number of contemporary progressive causes are concerned: he disliked smoking, regarding it as a serious danger to public health, and took steps to combat it; he was a vegetarian and animal lover; he enacted tough gun control laws; and he advocated euthanasia for the incurably ill.

        He championed the rights of workers, regarded capitalist society as brutal and unjust, and sought a third way between communism and the free market. In this regard, he and his associates greatly admired the strong steps taken by President Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal to take large-scale economic decision-making out of private hands and put it into those of government planning agencies. His aim was to institute a brand of socialism that avoided the inefficiencies that plagued the Soviet variety, and many former communists found his program highly congenial. He deplored the selfish individualism he took to be endemic to modern Western society, and wanted to replace it with an ethic of self-sacrifice: "As Christ proclaimed 'love one another'," he said, "so our call -- 'people's community,' 'public need before private greed,' 'communally-minded social consciousness' -- rings out.! This call will echo throughout the world!"

        The reference to Christ notwithstanding, he was not personally a Christian, regarding the Catholicism he was baptized into as an irrational superstition. In fact he admired Islam more than Christianity, and he and his policies were highly respected by many of the Muslims of his day. He and his associates had a special distaste for the Catholic Church and, given a choice, preferred modern liberalized Protestantism, taking the view that the best form of Christianity would be one that forsook the traditional other-worldly focus on personal salvation and accommodated itself to the requirements of a program for social justice to be implemented by the state. They also considered the possibility that Christianity might eventually have to be abandoned altogether in favor of a return to paganism, a worldview many of them saw as more humane and truer to the heritage of their people. For he and his associates believed strongly that a people's ethnic and racial heritage was what mattered most. Some endorsed a kind of cultural relativism according to which what is true or false and right or wrong in some sense depends on one's ethnic worldview, and especially on what best promotes the well-being of one's ethnic group

        © Copyright Original Source



        . . . and then what happened when he grew up? Hitler. On the superficial and not meaningful, and this could be one of billion of people from different political perspectives when they mature. It is common for the young to switch.
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-25-2018, 05:07 PM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
          This is one reason I prefer to use a 2d-political chart like the kind PoliticalCompass.org uses:



          Hitler and Stalin differed in their economic policies, but not in the dictatorial and authoritarian nature of their rule.

          Loosely speaking most modern politics tends to occur roughly along the diagonal from bottom left to top right of that chart, and so what we think of as the "left" today is the bottom left quadrant while the "right" is the top right quadrant. Relatively little modern politics occurs in either the top left (dictatorial communism) or the bottom right (ideological libertarianism). The chart is helpful to think about in terms of concentration of power - is power to make decisions concentrated in the hands of a few (right-wing) or distributed among many or all people (left-wing)? The horizontal axis is economic power, the vertical axis is political and social power.
          I agree the 2d is a better methodology, but not sure I'd accept that one for this debate.

          Also, a chart is only as good as the data plugged into it - and it's really hard to define political bent with survey data - historical data is easy to skew inadvertently.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

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          • #20
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            . . . and then what happened when he grew up? Hitler. On the superficial and not meaningful, and this could be one of billion of people from different political perspectives when they mature. It is common for the young to switch.
            But I some of those ideas were not completely abandoned. So when we get to the question on the influence of socialism on Naziism, different people come to different conclusions. And today's socialists are horrified to think Naziism is was influenced by socialist theories, the communists are horrified to think that it was influenced by communist theories, Capitalists are horrified . . . , biologists are horrified to think Darwin's theories played some role, Christians are horrified to think that Christianity played some role.

            But the one common factor is that we have all sides trying to find the "other side" as the culprit, the one to blame for Naziism. But Naziism was a unique blend of ideologies.

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            • #21
              Doesn't matter if Hitler was left or right or fascist or libertarian. He was evil and evil crosses all boundaries.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                This is one reason I prefer to use a 2d-political chart like the kind PoliticalCompass.org uses:



                Hitler and Stalin differed in their economic policies, but not in the dictatorial and authoritarian nature of their rule.

                Loosely speaking most modern politics tends to occur roughly along the diagonal from bottom left to top right of that chart, and so what we think of as the "left" today is the bottom left quadrant while the "right" is the top right quadrant. Relatively little modern politics occurs in either the top left (dictatorial communism) or the bottom right (ideological libertarianism). The chart is helpful to think about in terms of concentration of power - is power to make decisions concentrated in the hands of a few (right-wing) or distributed among many or all people (left-wing)? The horizontal axis is economic power, the vertical axis is political and social power.
                Ironically, it's the progressives (here, at any rate) who favor more and more power concentrated in the federal government, who favor totalitarian ideas like "hate speech" codes and forcing not simply tolerance, but celebration of ideas others find morally repugnant. They celebrated Obama ruling with his pen and a phone. Antifa, again ironically, uses the same methods fascism did before it came to power.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  Ironically, it's the progressives (here, at any rate) who favor more and more power concentrated in the federal government, who favor totalitarian ideas like "hate speech" codes and forcing not simply tolerance, but celebration of ideas others find morally repugnant. They celebrated Obama ruling with his pen and a phone. Antifa, again ironically, uses the same methods fascism did before it came to power.
                  I find this a little ironic. I find that each side favors power concentrated in the federal government, as long as it is power related to things they find important. The right wants the federal government to enact/enforce laws that reflect their moral codes (e.g. abortion, gay rights), the left want the government to enact/enforce laws that reflect theirs (protections against abuse, protection of the environment, etc.). Obama enacted things by pen he could not get through Congress - Trump has done the same thing, and to a greater degree. There have been more EOs under Trump than there were under Obama for a like period, and they have dealt with many of the same issues. But the right is mum about those. Both Antifa and the White Supremacist/Neo Nazi movements use fascist strategies.

                  Your post is just a bit skewed, IMO.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    enacted things by pen he could not get through Congress - Trump has done the same thing, and to a greater degree. There have been more EOs under Trump than there were under Obama for a like period, and they have dealt with many of the same issues. But the right is mum about those.
                    Could you start a new thread detailing some of these EOs?

                    Both Antifa and the White Supremacist/Neo Nazi movements use fascist strategies.

                    Your post is just a bit skewed, IMO.
                    Not true, most white supremacists are pretty peaceful and only fight when attacked. And they don't have institutional support while Antifas are routinely covered by Democrats.
                    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                      I agree the 2d is a better methodology, but not sure I'd accept that one for this debate.

                      Also, a chart is only as good as the data plugged into it - and it's really hard to define political bent with survey data - historical data is easy to skew inadvertently.
                      I've found that most attempts to distill complex political opinions down to a single point on a graph to be largely worthless. I took one political quiz that pegged me as just slightly right of center, and slightly libertarian. I found this result amusing.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        I've found that most attempts to distill complex political opinions down to a single point on a graph to be largely worthless. I took one political quiz that pegged me as just slightly right of center, and slightly libertarian. I found this result amusing.
                        Last month there was a discussion of various political quizzes and I noted how the "world's smallest political quiz" placed me well into the libertarian camp (which I am) but also just slightly left of center causing this reaction from carp:
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        You just made me snort coffee up my nose...

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                          Not true, most white supremacists are pretty peaceful and only fight when attacked. And they don't have institutional support while Antifas are routinely covered by Democrats.
                          White supremacists are pretty peaceful? I suggest you spend time reviewing this embedded reporter with the Charlotsville White Nationalists. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIrcB1sAN8I). These are the people you are defending.

                          And the completel list of Trumps EOs can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_Donald_Trump
                          Last edited by carpedm9587; 01-28-2018, 01:40 PM.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            I find this a little ironic. I find that each side favors power concentrated in the federal government, as long as it is power related to things they find important. The right wants the federal government to enact/enforce laws that reflect their moral codes (e.g. abortion, gay rights), the left want the government to enact/enforce laws that reflect theirs (protections against abuse, protection of the environment, etc.).
                            I agree that the Republican party is also guilty of this to some extent - hence the growth of the Libertarian Party.
                            Obama enacted things by pen he could not get through Congress - Trump has done the same thing, and to a greater degree. There have been more EOs under Trump than there were under Obama for a like period, and they have dealt with many of the same issues. But the right is mum about those.
                            What do you consider "like period"? There's been a change in the party in power; it's rather more likely than not the initial period is going to have a greater amount of change, as the new authority rolls back what it can of the previous regime.
                            Both Antifa and the White Supremacist/Neo Nazi movements use fascist strategies.

                            Your post is just a bit skewed, IMO.
                            You're not going to find me defending white supremacists or Neo Nazis. It is sort of expected that they'd use such. Nice attempt at deflection, tho.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              The World's Smallest Political Quiz seems designed to trick people who know little about politics into thinking they're libertarians, even though they expressly deny this claim on their website. One of the questions asks about whether we should shrink government by 50%, and people who don't know better are going to think "oh, sure, that sounds good" without realizing what this would actually entail. Nobody should be able to make this proposal without actually outlining what they would cut.
                              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                I agree that the Republican party is also guilty of this to some extent - hence the growth of the Libertarian Party.

                                What do you consider "like period"? There's been a change in the party in power; it's rather more likely than not the initial period is going to have a greater amount of change, as the new authority rolls back what it can of the previous regime.
                                Yes, there are usually more EOs at the start of a presidency. Still, Trump is outpacing the last three presidents (http://www.businessinsider.com/how-m...on-bush-2017-8). Meanwhile, Obama signed fewer executive orders per year than any president in the last 120 years, yet he is constantly dinged for "ruling by pen." In fact, the complaint is not about the fact that he "ruled by pen" but rather that he issued EOs that Republicans didn't WANT him to issue. Trump is doing what Republicans want, so the EOs are OK.

                                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                You're not going to find me defending white supremacists or Neo Nazis. It is sort of expected that they'd use such. Nice attempt at deflection, tho.
                                I have no idea what you think I am deflecting from. The statement that ANTIFA uses fascist techniques is accurate - but incomplete. Extremists tend to use fascist techniques - at both ends of the political spectrum.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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