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  • #46
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    You're right to be concerned. There are at least 2 active racists on this forum who claim to be Christians, who spend a lot of time derogatively talking about non-white races, and who have proposed racial segregation as a method for answering social problems. For some reason it seems most of the other forum members think they're just joking around, or trolling or something, and don't seem to take them very seriously. I've rarely if ever heard them speak out against the obvious racist ideology spouted by these guys (with the exception of maybe KingsGambit). It's really sad, and I wish more people would speak out against it, because I know that they're good people who know that that sort of talk is off, but maybe they don't want to ruffle feathers or something. I don't know.

    That said, the issue with the Charlottesville march is a bit more complicated, and I think for a lot of ordinary people, they didn't view the march as a pro-Nazi, or pro-white supremacist rally. Rather, they saw it as a pro-right march, that was opposed to the removal of statues of historical figures, that unfortunately attracted right-wing extremists. And I think there's a further debate within the right about the statues themselves. For some people the statues represent some sort of racial pride, but probably for the overwhelming majority of people, the statues represent things like Southern pride, or a historical lesson that shouldn't be forgotten, and nothing particularly to do with race.
    I have looked into the history of that statuary, and I have lived in the south (New Orleans) for part of my life. I understand the sentiment people have for these statues, and I disagree with them. First of all, they are statues to men who took up arms against the country. Where else can anyone turn to find a country rewarding men who committed treason by erecting statues in their honor? Second, the majority of these statues were erected at specific times in history: post civil war reconstruction, the age of Jim Crow laws, and during the civil rights revolution. Many of them have documents (letters, news articles, opinion pieces, etc.) attributing their intention to "show those black people who's boss" (or the equivalent thereof). They are, in short, a testimonial to negative racial attitudes in our country. Although not all black people have strong feelings about them, a LOT of black people do. So do some of us white people.

    No one is saying that history needs to be erased or forgotten, but statues are erected to things in which we take pride. I do not see why we should be taking pride in honoring these men, who fought to defend the cause of slavery. They belong in museums, where they can serve as reminders to our history, not in the center of our city parks and public byways, where they can remind everyone going by that some people still pay tribute to the cause of slavery.

    I realize there are different view points about this, but I have the following observation to make about them: if the whirte supremacists and neo-nazis of our country can be so fired about about preserving these things, does that not tell us a little something about what they represent to many people?
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 01-29-2018, 10:43 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      I have looked into the history of that statuary, and I have lived in the south (New Orleans) for part of my life. I understand the sentiment people have for these statues, and I disagree with them. First of all, they are statues to men who took up arms against the country. Second, the majority of these statues were erected at specific times in history: post civil war reconstruction, the age of Jim Crow laws, and during the civil rights revolution. Many of them have documents attributing their intention to "show those black people who's boss" (or the equivalent thereof). They are, in short, a testimonial to racial attitudes in our country. Although not all black people have storng feelings about them, a LOT of black people do. So do some of us white people.

      No one is saying that history needs to be erased or forgotten, but statues are erected to things in which we take pride. I do not see why we should be taking pride in honoring these men, who fought to defend the cause of slavery. They belong in museums, where they can serve as reminders to our history, not in the center of our city parks and public byways, where they can remind everyone going by that some people still pay tribute to the cause of slavery.

      I realize there are different view points about this, but I have the following observation to make about them: if the whirte supremacists and neo-nazis of our country can be so fired about about preserving these things, does that not tell us a little something about what they represent to many people?
      To clarify, I wasn't attempting to build a defense for the statues. I was just attempting to highlight why some people were against their removal, and why, contrary to how it's often painted, the Charlottesville march was/is not considered a pro-White Supremacist rally by many people. I hadn't stated my own personal stance on the subject, but I suppose I'll do so now. I'm fully aware that they were mostly erected after Reconstruction, and during Jim Crow. That seems to be a sticking point that a lot of people who want to see them removed bring up often, so it's hard to miss. As I understand it, most of them were erected in the early 20th century, when the US was sort of romanticising the South, and their defeat. Probably helped along by films like Birth of a Nation, and continued later with films like Jezebel, and Gone with the Wind. I'm not a Southerner, and while I can sympathize with people who have "Southern pride", I feel like I need to remind anyone who waves the Stars and Bars that the North won (especially if they live in the North). I think that the desire to see the statues removed is totally understandable, and I sympathize with those who'd like to see them removed, but part of me can't help but feel that it's simply sweeping history under the rug. I think they should probably remain, but with placards placed on them that remind people that, while these men may have done some heroic acts in the midst of war, they were ultimately supporting something that was evil. I think throwing them into a museum, while a decent compromise, doesn't really do justice to the situation. I think it's necessary that these things are in places like parks as a public reminder. Putting them in museums isn't a public enough reminder. Those are just my thoughts. I feel the same way about Nazi-associated statues, art, and buildings that Germany often destroys to prevent them from becoming Neo-Nazi shrines and memorials. I think it's a mistake to remove reminders to the public that ordinary people could do monstrous things.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        To clarify, I wasn't attempting to build a defense for the statues. I was just attempting to highlight why some people were against their removal, and why, contrary to how it's often painted, the Charlottesville march was/is not considered a pro-White Supremacist rally by many people. I hadn't stated my own personal stance on the subject, but I suppose I'll do so now. I'm fully aware that they were mostly erected after Reconstruction, and during Jim Crow. That seems to be a sticking point that a lot of people who want to see them removed bring up often, so it's hard to miss. As I understand it, most of them were erected in the early 20th century, when the US was sort of romanticising the South, and their defeat. Probably helped along by films like Birth of a Nation, and continued later with films like Jezebel, and Gone with the Wind. I'm not a Southerner, and while I can sympathize with people who have "Southern pride", I feel like I need to remind anyone who waves the Stars and Bars that the North won (especially if they live in the North). I think that the desire to see the statues removed is totally understandable, and I sympathize with those who'd like to see them removed, but part of me can't help but feel that it's simply sweeping history under the rug. I think they should probably remain, but with placards placed on them that remind people that, while these men may have done some heroic acts in the midst of war, they were ultimately supporting something that was evil. I think throwing them into a museum, while a decent compromise, doesn't really do justice to the situation. I think it's necessary that these things are in places like parks as a public reminder. Putting them in museums isn't a public enough reminder. Those are just my thoughts. I feel the same way about Nazi-associated statues, art, and buildings that Germany often destroys to prevent them from becoming Neo-Nazi shrines and memorials. I think it's a mistake to remove reminders to the public that ordinary people could do monstrous things.
        I have no problem with such public reminders. I have the problem with them taking the form of statuary that "honors" an individual. We do not make and publicly display, in the U.S. statues of people who fought against our country. Even Benedict Arnold, who actually fought in several pro-revolutionary battles on the American side and did himself honor before he turned traitor, has little statuary left to these original feats (http://www.neatorama.com/2014/01/01/...nedict-Arnold/). If you want to publicly remind, then put a cannon there, or a simple plaque, or a reproduction of a fort, or a statue of lady liberty with an explanatory plaque. Or how about a statue that depicts the horrors of slavery, with an explanatory plaque.

        I repeat - a statue of a person in a public place is an honorific. These men do not deserve that honoriffic, and honoring them dishonors the many people impacted by the cause for which they were fighting. We can publicly remember that history more appropriately, and consign these statues to museums with the proper context.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          I have no problem with such public reminders. I have the problem with them taking the form of statuary that "honors" an individual. We do not make and publicly display, in the U.S. statues of people who fought against our country. Even Benedict Arnold, who actually fought in several pro-revolutionary battles on the American side and did himself honor before he turned traitor, has little statuary left to these original feats (http://www.neatorama.com/2014/01/01/...nedict-Arnold/). If you want to publicly remind, then put a cannon there, or a simple plaque, or a reproduction of a fort, or a statue of lady liberty with an explanatory plaque. Or how about a statue that depicts the horrors of slavery, with an explanatory plaque.

          I repeat - a statue of a person in a public place is an honorific. These men do not deserve that honoriffic, and honoring them dishonors the many people impacted by the cause for which they were fighting. We can publicly remember that history more appropriately, and consign these statues to museums with the proper context.
          I feel you've missed my point. Again, I'm not for the statues. I feel that the statues probably should remain simply because removing them sweeps an ugly history under the carpet. People should be aware of the evil that these men fought for, as well that there were citizens who felt that it was fine to commemorate these men not so long ago. I do not deny that the statues were initially placed to honor the individuals, but I think placing placards explaining the historical context would be a justifiable remedy to that honorific. Going back to Germany, it's good that they didn't completely destroy the concentration camps, and that these buildings are often in very open and public places. People need a reminder that ordinary people can end up supporting evil things.

          But really, I don't feel nearly as strongly about this subject as you apparently do. My feeling that they should probably remain isn't something I'm interested in debating much. Certainly not worth marching over. If they end up in a museum, I'd feel that's a relatively decent compromise.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            You're right to be concerned. There are at least 2 active racists on this forum who claim to be Christians, who spend a lot of time derogatively talking about non-white races, and who have proposed racial segregation as a method for answering social problems. For some reason it seems most of the other forum members think they're just joking around, or trolling or something, and don't seem to take them very seriously. I've rarely if ever heard them speak out against the obvious racist ideology spouted by these guys (with the exception of maybe KingsGambit). It's really sad, and I wish more people would speak out against it, because I know that they're good people who know that that sort of talk is off, but maybe they don't want to ruffle feathers or something. I don't know.
            It seems clear that cleaning one's house takes a backseat to political solidarity, because any appearance of internal squabbling will detract from a clear political narrative, even if it's something as obvious as condemning racism. It's sad.

            I doubt that I personally carry a lot of credibility with many on political issues around here simply by virtue of not being conservative, so when I do speak up I see it as having limited utility. Certainly the fact that I'm always the only one lends credence to that theory.
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              I feel you've missed my point. Again, I'm not for the statues. I feel that the statues probably should remain simply because removing them sweeps an ugly history under the carpet. People should be aware of the evil that these men fought for, as well that there were citizens who felt that it was fine to commemorate these men not so long ago. I do not deny that the statues were initially placed to honor the individuals, but I think placing placards explaining the historical context would be a justifiable remedy to that honorific. Going back to Germany, it's good that they didn't completely destroy the concentration camps, and that these buildings are often in very open and public places. People need a reminder that ordinary people can end up supporting evil things.

              But really, I don't feel nearly as strongly about this subject as you apparently do. My feeling that they should probably remain isn't something I'm interested in debating much. Certainly not worth marching over. If they end up in a museum, I'd feel that's a relatively decent compromise.
              No, Adrift, I did not miss your point. I am disagreeing with one aspect of it: that we should "retain these statues because removing them sweeps ugly history under the rug." We can remove them without doing so by replacing them with something more appropriate, that remembers the ugly history without honoring the perpetrators. So replace them with a canon, a symbolic image, or something that shows the true horror that slavery was, to actually remind us of the ugly history - not honorifics that glorify the enactors.

              And yes, I do have fairly strong feelings about this, probably born from the questions I've had to answer from my two sons, both black, as we wandered New Orleans and Atlanta and Charlotte and they asked me about these very statues, wondering why anyone would celebrate people who fought to keep others enslaved. It has a fairly personal edge for me.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                No, Adrift, I did not miss your point. I am disagreeing with one aspect of it: that we should "retain these statues because removing them sweeps ugly history under the rug." We can remove them without doing so by replacing them with something more appropriate, that remembers the ugly history without honoring the perpetrators. So replace them with a canon, a symbolic image, or something that shows the true horror that slavery was, to actually remind us of the ugly history - not honorifics that glorify the enactors.

                And yes, I do have fairly strong feelings about this, probably born from the questions I've had to answer from my two sons, both black, as we wandered New Orleans and Atlanta and Charlotte and they asked me about these very statues, wondering why anyone would celebrate people who fought to keep others enslaved. It has a fairly personal edge for me.
                I'm not sure how replacing the statues with, say, a canon, tells us anything about the people who erected the statues to begin with, which I think is just as important an issue as who the statue was attempting to commemorate. But I've stated my thoughts on the subject about as well as I can, and as I said, I don't feel so strongly about it to argue the point. Take them to a museum if you want.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Adrift would you be in favor of a sign explaining a few things such as many of the statues having been put up during the Jim Crow law stuff? I think a lot of people genuinely think that all these statues are old colonial period treasures, when were really just put up by racists, in living memory, who were pining for Confederate greatness to rise again.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    Adrift would you be in favor of a sign explaining a few things such as many of the statues having been put up during the Jim Crow law stuff? I think a lot of people genuinely think that all these statues are old colonial period treasures, when were really just put up by racists, in living memory, who were pining for Confederate greatness to rise again.
                    Absolutely.

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                    • #55
                      I think either that or relocating to a museum where it can be put in context is the answer. As stated in other places I am of course entirely against their destruction, but I understand the problem of them giving honour to someone.

                      I'd be content though, even if they remain, if we could just make people aware of the actual history of most of these statues.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        I think either that or relocating to a museum where it can be put in context is the answer. As stated in other places I am of course entirely against their destruction, but I understand the problem of them giving honour to someone.

                        I'd be content though, even if they remain, if we could just make people aware of the actual history of most of these statues.
                        Pretty much in agreement with everything you have to say here, though you keep using the word "colonial", and I'm not sure that's what you mean. Maybe Confederate? The Colonial period in America was pre-1800s.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          .... Jesus as a radical Marxist. I think we need to guard against this sort of thing.
                          Strictly, Marx would have been a Josephsonist, not the other way about.
                          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                          “not all there” - you know who you are

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            You're right to be concerned. There are at least 2 active racists on this forum who claim to be Christians, who spend a lot of time derogatively talking about non-white races, and who have proposed racial segregation as a method for answering social problems. For some reason it seems most of the other forum members think they're just joking around, or trolling or something, and don't seem to take them very seriously. I've rarely if ever heard them speak out against the obvious racist ideology spouted by these guys (with the exception of maybe KingsGambit). It's really sad, and I wish more people would speak out against it, because I know that they're good people who know that that sort of talk is off, but maybe they don't want to ruffle feathers or something. I don't know.

                            That said, the issue with the Charlottesville march is a bit more complicated, and I think for a lot of ordinary people, they didn't view the march as a pro-Nazi, or pro-white supremacist rally. Rather, they saw it as a pro-right march, that was opposed to the removal of statues of historical figures, that unfortunately attracted right-wing extremists. And I think there's a further debate within the right about the statues themselves. For some people the statues represent some sort of racial pride, but probably for the overwhelming majority of people, the statues represent things like Southern pride, or a historical lesson that shouldn't be forgotten, and nothing particularly to do with race.
                            One of the problems is how to confront it.

                            What will it be replaced with? Ideas do not leave without something else replacing them.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                              You're right to be concerned. There are at least 2 active racists on this forum who claim to be Christians
                              There are a lot more than 2 active racists on this forum who claim to be Christians. Including yourself.
                              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                Adrift would you be in favor of a sign explaining a few things such as many of the statues having been put up during the Jim Crow law stuff? I think a lot of people genuinely think that all these statues are old colonial period treasures, when were really just put up by racists, in living memory, who were pining for Confederate greatness to rise again.
                                Bullcrap. None of you have any idea what they were put up for - or by whom.

                                But hey, it's okay if your (general - Danes probably excluded) ancestors are honored publicly for fighting for whatever they believed in - even if they were only a generation ofr so removed from slavery being quite legal in their territories and weren't really abolitionists - but statues dedicated to those whose lost was still felt very much at that time (seriously, you guys do realize Civil War veterans were still living when most of this statuary was erected often in memorial to their fallen friends) by their friends, families, communities and even other veterans should be torn down because you'd rather assume that those people didn't really grieve for their lost loved ones and were just being racist. After all, your ancestors only made sure that women and children would starve, regardless of race - or did you thinks Sherman's scorched earth policy had no ill effects?

                                I thought the fight over the stupid 'battle flag' was ridiculous (neither side ever noticed it wasn't the ACTUAL flag!) but this is just sick. It's mob justice a hundred years too late.

                                And while we're at it - Confederate veterans were paid pensions as were their widows just as were Union veterans - if those who actually fought the war could show mercy to those who took up arms, who are you to condemn them now?

                                Y'all can go right ahead showing your callous disregard for the feelings of others and utter ignorance. War's over, but you're the ones still fighting it.

                                Unsubscribing.
                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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